Contemplating my decision to leave Christianity (disciple, divorce, Christians, believers)

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by Teacher Terry

Religion is a man made concept to control people and originally was used to explain natural phenomenon to ignorant people. I am the first to admit there’s comfort in the rituals. Jesus the myth may indeed be based on a real person. People with morals and values don’t need a mythical god to keep them from doing what’s wrong.

Well said.

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by Thoreau424

Hilarious. The OP has some alleged "disastrous" experience of his own making (LOL), thinks others are just like him (LOL!), and that he needs to rescue them (LOL!!) This comedy of errors just keeps snowballing before our eyes.

By all means, continue! This is the best entertainment this side of the Internet This thread in particular is already a classic.

Thoreau, you are a prize in a Crackerjack box.






Reading your rants and BF's always puts a smile on my face. Love 'em.

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by mensaguy

Nobody can prove a negative, so, of course, it is not possible to PROVE Jesus wasn't real. Your next statement is comparing a negative to a positive. Galaxies are something you can see. Evidence of a positive claim is a world different from a lack of evidence for a negative claim.

Okay, that's fair point. Let me put a different kind of spin on it: in the strictest sense you're right. The universal law is that a negative can't be proved. So if I make an accusation, "The gospel Jesus was a myth, then it cannot be proven Jesus was a myth even though the same standards apply to Mithra, Osiris and Dionysus. The Christians cannot prove they didn't exist either, so then how do Christians get off saying "Jesus is the only way to heaven"? That's a positive but how do they prove a positive?


So when we get right down to it, nothing is possible to prove when it comes to a 2000 year old religion--positive and negative. But in the loosest sense of "evidence and proof" I think (and I'm not alone, obviously, judging by the number of books on Jesus mythicism out there) an excellent case can be made that the gospels Jesus never existed. I mean the evidence is overwhelming--I have presented only a fraction of it, it takes a tome nearly 700 pages long like Richard Carrier's "On the historicity of Jesus" to really begin to explore the matter. But the argument can be made that even with 700 pages of evidence Carrier still cannot prove Jesus was a myth.


But then verdict rests with the people. If Christianity has declined by 90% to 64% percent in just 50 years and it is projected to decline to 34% by 2070 then these former Christians are being convinced by something. That is what I refer to as "proof" but other might disagree--certainly the Christians will, even though they cannot and will not explain why their religion keeps hemorrhaging members. Maybe a Christian like Thoreau or BaptistFundie would care to explain why their numbers are dropping so precipitously without the old canard, "They were never Christians in the first place." Can you imagine having the audacity to accuse roughly 100 million former American Christians of not being Christian in the first place????????


The population of the US in 1970 was 200 million. Today it is 332 million so let's choose a half way point which would be roughly 130 million Americans. So roughly 30% of that 130 million Americans dropped out of Christianity between 1970 and 2020. That would put it at about 42 million former Christians in that 50 year span, give or take.

I'd love to see Thoreau or BaptistFundie try to explain why Christianity lost 42 million Christians in that 50 years. That'd be a scream. Let's try:

Thoreau or BaptistFundie:

Why did Christianity lose 42 million Christians between 1970 and 2020?


I know they won't get near the question because it is the kind of question that no matter how they try to explain, it can only make them and Christianity look bad.

[Bootsamillion]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

Being retired I have a lot of time to reflect. Lately I have been reflecting on the decision I made 10 years ago to leave Jesus and Christianity. It happened circa 2012 when someone in here challenged me to research Jesus and see if I could find any historical evidence for him outside the Bible. So I spent about 6 months researching Jesus and found that indeed there was no historical evidence for Jesus. That was when the foundations of my faith cracked.


Actually they had cracked earlier back circa 2000 or so. I had gotten ill and requested the church elders to come over and pray over me per James 5:14-16


14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


They did and we followed all the instructions in James. Still the illness persisted. It wasn't until I saw a doctor and took some medicine he prescribed that I was healed. God didn't heal me, the doctor and the medicine he prescribed did. Actually that was when the first cracks in the foundation of my faith started. But I put it away and didn't think about it.


It was around 2012 or so that I began noticing that my prayers NEVER got answered, not just in that instance in 2000 but I mean anytime I prayed there never was a noticeable change in my life. Things always stayed the same. I put two and two together and realized that everything about Christianity was pure hogwash. The only thing Christianity ever did was put a dent in my wallet because of tithing. So I stopped tithing. From there I lost the desire to pray. Previously I was on my knees twice a day in the morning and before going to bed arms lifted up to God to give thanks and to pray for sin to cease in my life--you know, all the things the churchmen tell you to pray about if you want to please God.


I slowly began to come to a realization. I was losing my faith despite praying to God to save me from losing my faith. I still had no desire to continue with him. I slowly came to another realization. God and Jesus simply didn't care if I left them. Nothing changed in my life. There were no visits from the Holy Spirit to save me. There were no extraordinary happenings to give me a sign. It was a complete blank. The only thing extraordinary that did happen was that I came into a lot of money via inheritance a few years ago when a wealthy relative passed away. I now have more money than I can spend in my remaining years.


Gradually I realized that all the balderdash I had been fed by other Christians was completely false. No evidence for Jesus; no prayers getting answered; no manifestations of anything supernatural in my life. I found what millions of other Christians are finding every day: God and Jesus simply do not exist.


It's been ten years since I left Jesus. I have a temper in my old age, not against other people but against myself when I do stupid things like spilling coffee on the floor. I swear up a storm using the names Jesus and God in every conceivable blasphemous combination you can imagine. Nothing happens to me. A bolt of lightning doesn't come down and strike me.


God doesn't touch me. I have no fear of retribution from God anymore because I know Jesus isn't real and never was so he has no power over me. My life continues as it always has. No repercussions from God. No nothing from God.


Those of you who want to leave Christianity but are fearful you'll get smitten by God, don't worry. I assure 10000% nothing will happen to you. Your life will continue uninterrupted and in many ways it will actually get better. Mine did.


Try saying this prayer: "God I want to leave you and Jesus behind but I don't know if I should. Please give me some sort of sign I should stay with Jesus and I will. In Jesus name I ask. Amen"


I can assure you absolutely nothing will happen that is a clear sign you should stay with God. He doesn't care what you do, stay or leave. He simply doesn't care. You'll slowly come to the realization you've been talking to empty air all these years. I did.


That's my story. Any other ex-Christians have a story to tell?

God never said that bad things would never happen to Christians. And there is evidence of HIM in your own back yard. Do you have children? HE is to lean on when times are bad, and miracles DO happen. No bolt of lightening will come down on you because you curse God, silly man. You aren't dead yet. You will probably be forgiven for all of that, because HE is a just God. However, the rejection will not go well. The saddest thing about this is that if there were no God, nothing would make sense. To live a life on the earth with family and have the emotions we do are just going to go away forever and ever when we die? We will just be "lights out" ? What a sad, horrible perception of the afterlife. Prayers for you.

[Thoreau424]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

I'd love to see Thoreau or BaptistFundie try to explain why Christianity lost 42 million Christians in that 50 years. That'd be a scream. Let's try:

Thoreau or BaptistFundie:

Why did Christianity lose 42 million Christians between 1970 and 2020?

I know they won't get near the question because it is the kind of question that no matter how they try to explain, it can only make them and Christianity look bad.

Where did you get that alleged "data"? There's no way I'll chase after unsubstantiated claims. If you can't provide a valid reference to review, then there's nothing to respond to. Unlike you, I research matters before coming to a conclusion. You just latch onto anything you see or read that matches your narrow view, no matter how questionable.

Even if it was correct - which it couldn't be - I could care less about how many people are Christians. Leave that to God to bother with. I'm not into cheerleading for any viewpoint like you so childishly need. If I was the only one on the planet, it wouldn't change squat. I'm a committee of one. What works for me is all I need. Try that sometime; it might revolutionize your attitude.

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by Bootsamillion

God never said that bad things would never happen to Christians. And there is evidence of HIM in your own back yard. Do you have children? HE is to lean on when times are bad, and miracles DO happen. No bolt of lightening will come down on you because you curse God, silly man. You aren't dead yet. You will probably be forgiven for all of that, because HE is a just God. However, the rejection will not go well. The saddest thing about this is that if there were no God, nothing would make sense. To live a life on the earth with family and have the emotions we do are just going to go away forever and ever when we die? We will just be "lights out" ? What a sad, horrible perception of the afterlife. Prayers for you.

Thanks much for the prayers, Boots. I don't believe they'll do me a bit of good and prayers never worked for me but I greatly appreciate the sentiment.


Here's how I see it:


Actually, "God" says and does lots of bad things to people who the Bible writers think are their enemies. Let me explain: way back before Abraham and the Hebrews came along Yahweh was a minor god who was part of the Canaanite collection of gods which included some 234 eternal gods of which Yahweh was the god of metals. Then the Hebrews moved into the Canaanite's neighborhood and the Hebrews began assimilating the Canaanite's gods like El (recognize him, "Elohim" and Asherah, El's consort and later Yahweh's consort.) Many centuries later the Hebrews adopted Yahweh as their main warrior god and went from polytheism to monotheism. Asherah is in the Bible in Judges 3:7, 6:28, 10:6. You can check. The Old Testament reflects Israel's polytheistic past.



That's the history lesson. Do I have children? No. But if I did I wouldn't encourage my children to lean on God because he will fail them every time just like he does millions of Christians now who are leaving Christianity. I've never seen a miracle and no scientific body has ever recorded a bonafide miracle, but Christians are free to believe miracles happen all they want. It's a free country. Will I be forgiven? Who knows? Maybe, maybe not. I'll cross that bridge when I take my last breath, but I certainly wont let such a thought worry me now after 60 years of worrying about such silly things for naught.



The word, "Elohim" is used about 2500 times in the Hebrew Old Testament. One example, "And Elohim said, 'Let US make man in OUR image after OUR likeness.' " You'll read all sorts of apologists trying to wallpaper over the fact the early Hebrews were polytheists who worshiped pagan Canaanite gods. Apologists will say, "That's God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit talking together" and other sundry nonsense. It's a sad thing that the Christians have to make up all sorts of lies to cover over their pagan heritage but such is life when there isn't a real God to set things straight and so humans have to rely on each other to ferret out some semblance of truth in all this man-made confusion.



Them are the facts, Boots. There isn't any God that gets involved with us. Whatever created us left us on our own to deal with our own myths and fables and try to make sense out of millennia and millennia that brought forth thousands of different gods. You could spend a whole 8 years PhD program just studying the true history religions and you'd still only comprehend about 50% of it. I'm done with trying to make heads or tails out of it all.

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by Thoreau424

Where did you get that alleged "data"? There's no way I'll chase after unsubstantiated claims. If you can't provide a valid reference to review, then there's nothing to respond to. Unlike you, I research matters before coming to a conclusion. You just latch onto anything you see or read that matches your narrow view, no matter how questionable.

Even if it was correct - which it couldn't be - I could care less about how many people are Christians. Leave that to God to bother with. I'm not into cheerleading for any viewpoint like you so childishly need. If I was the only one on the planet, it wouldn't change squat. I'm a committee of one. What works for me is all I need. Try that sometime; it might revolutionize your attitude.

Like I said,

no matter how they try to explain, it can only make them and Christianity look bad.

[LargeKingCat]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to thrillobyte again.

Good points Thrill. I think we are kindred atheistic spirits and have more in common than we realized. I hate to get involved in the Vitriol of the theists here, as this forum is starting to become as toxic as the political forums. But you are correct in the following

There is no evidence..zero...none whatsoever of the existence of any deity.
There is no evidence at all whatsoever that prayer does anything. In fact, it was shown in in a scientific study that prayer in fact does not work. IN fact of the tens of thousands of studies since 1872 no theory or even strong hypothesis has been shown by testing to indicate that prayer does anything other than making a person feel like they did something

There is no evidence of a crucified and resurrected Yeshua Ben Yosef outside of myths, legends told by people and written up to 100 years after. Rome would have taken note of a potential "messiah" and no record of that person as such was ever recorded. (Never mind that many of us have shown how the crucifixion myth could not have happened in reality.)

In Regards to claims by certain religious people as to the divine inspiration of the Bible, I would suggest that people who say that actually read it for once. Many of us who are atheists have read it and can discuss it from a non believer point of view. And in spite of claims, there is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever..none...that the Bible is the "Word of god"




Claims yes, truth no.

Now I am not some kind of fuddy duddy that cannot enjoy good fiction. (The Bible being not-good fiction) I enjoy discussing religion, beliefs myths monsters...the thin being I can accept that they are in fact works of fiction. Regardless of what someone else says . Or believes. (My beliefs are not dependent on other's viewpoints.) SO I am free and clear to discuss anything with anyone.

Finally in regards to god healing people through prayers through doctors. That is about the most asinine example of Bat-Logic I have heard. If an atheist gets sick, who has no prayers offered, goes to a doctor, then that DOCTOR, using medical science and his or her training cures the person. It is medical science that gives us longer healthier lives. (read medical history books for examples)
"God" does nothing and never has. But if someone has actual proof and evidence , then I want to know.

[eddie gein]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

Ah! So the millions of good Christian parents who pray for their dying child to be healed are going against God's will when they ask God to intervene? Got it.

Didn't you read the post?

The dying children get "eternal life". That of course is contingent on if they have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior... which is also contingent on whether the dying/ dead child has reached the age of accountability. (Don't believe in the age of accountability? Ok, the kid needs to have been sprinkled with water along the way).

I kind of feel bad for the kid who has reached the age of accountability and then died shortly thereafter without doing his sinner's prayer. I think that would really suck.

So if you have a kid in the hospital that is five, or six, or seven or whatever the mysterious "age of accountability" is... You better start convicting them of their sins and get that prayer prayed!!!!

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

I thank you, mordant for addressing the post I directed at phetaori, which pehtaori has no intention of discussing--probably because of some traumatic experience he had with Christianity in the past and doesn't want to relive it. And I fully intend to respond to your long post of your deconversion because I found it the most fascinating story I have read, certainly in here--actually the ONLY story in here outside of mine.


But as to the quote above let me clarify my intentions as I constantly try to do because my previous explanations never get read or they get missed:


Thoreau describes me as a foaming at the mouth Christophobe, which is hilarious as he is a foaming at the mouth Christian who never offers anything of worth to the question, just insults and mocking because I hurt his feelings. It'd be much more constructive if he'd contribute something that proved his mythical pagan man-god was real--and God-knows I've tried to get him to do so, that would shut me up real good; but he refuses to put up because as we all know, he has nothing but blanks in his pistol. Well, such is the situation when you're a Christian up to your neck in quicksand like Thoreau is.


No, you're wrong, mordant, and God knows I've tried to stress the point innumerable times. If people will read the OP disclaimer of the "Jesus is a myth" thread they'll get my intentions. Actually I'll just state the disclaimer again. This is from the OP:


So I am NOT trying to disprove a historical Jesus. One may have indeed existed. We don't know. WE JUST DON'T KNOW because we have no entries in the secular record of any such person named Jesus who was reputed to have performed miracles and who was crucified. Historians just assume he was real because how else do they explain the advent of Christianity and it's spread. For that matter, how do we explain the spread of worship of Osiris for 3-4 thousand years. Was there a real Egyptian upon which the Osiris mythical god was based? Again, we simply don't know.


JC, I hope that clears up the matter! In a nutshell, I am NOT trying to disprove a historical figure upon which the gospel Jesus was likely based. I am trying to prove--with evidence--that the gospel Jesus is a myth man god just like a dozen other mythical men gods that came before him, despite Thoreau's ranting and raving that I haven't proven squat and other sundry nonsense like "I'm still waiting".


I get that. Not everyone is interested in knowing if the gospel Jesus was real and that's perfectly fine. But there are roughly 100 books out there addressing the topic and I gave a list of 20 of the most promising ones in the other thread. Clearly there is a market for it if scholars are doing all this research and more and more scholars are coming over to the theory that the gospels Jesus was indeed a myth because that's where the evidence is pointing. When you say,


"The main point is the gospels aren't describing actual history and also are not, as widely claimed, "eyewitness accounts" in any meaningful sense of those words."


you are obviously not referring to Christians because they swear on a stack of Bibles that the gospel Jesus was as real as you or I, despite not having a nickel's worth of secular evidence he was. Of course that doesn't matter to them; they are going to stay faithful to their mythical god till the cows come home no matter what evidence surfaces he wasn't real. My posts are not intended to persuade fanatics like Thoreau and BaptistFundie. It'd be easier to blow up Mt Everest than try to convince them Jesus wasn't real so I don't waste my time on that wild goose chase.


My intended audience is the silent lurkers who are undecided about Christianity but who are open-minded enough about the matter that they will listen to what I have to say. I am not offering anything new. Everything I say here can be found in any volume on Jesus mythicism. But how many lurkers here are going to invest the time and money into buying a volume? So they can get the info free right here to help them decide if they want to join a dying religion or simply steer clear of Jesus and live a much fuller, richer life devoid of him and all the shackles he would drag into their lives. For me, this is a hill I am willing to die on because I don't want young people throwing their lives away on Jesus and Christianity. I've experienced the disastrous consequences of being a Christian and I want to help people avoid making the same mistake.

every time i read these posts that mention they are writing for and speaking to and addressing their "intended audience of the silent lurkers" it brings to mind a great story. one that is taught in yes my religion. a man is sequestered in his room studying his religious books, and reciting aloud as is the custom. He hears shuffling outside his door, and this happens time and time again. So he begins reciting aloud his own thoughts on the texts. He does this week after week, month after month, year after year. He is convinced that he has pupils and disciples and students crowding the hallway, vying for a position where they can hear his words of wisdom. His explanations become ever more grandiose and ever more verbose. The muffled noises outside his door continue. He sees himself as one of the sages of his time. He keeps himself sequestered as befits the status of such a one. Finally decades have passed and he has grown quite old, and he is preparing to depart the world. He feels it is fitting to let his students finally glimpse him, as they have been so faithful and devoted in attending his talks through the door.

So he opens the door to tell them good bye, before passing on to the next world. And he sees the cats who have been scratching the doorpost and wandering the hall.

that's what comes to mind, every time the pontificating preachers here on CD expound for those they imagine yearning and straining to hear their words.