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Aint it, when I walk in the door people say,'' Hey no smoking,'' and I show them my hands and they are still looking for a butt.
Show them your butt when they are looking for your hands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
But can be murdered at any time by God for no reason whatsoever -- simply because "I brought you into this world, I can take you out."
I can't resist posting (or to be honest, I have to post something relevant) the reply to the 'God as Potter' analogy. The point (yours as I recall) that humans have feelings and pots don't was spot on. But when the potter analogy is used to try to shift the responsibility for our nature to the pot, I argue that 'clay remembers'. If the potter makes a pot in a certain way, then if it isn't right it is the potter's responsibility - not the pot's. The potter may indeed sling the clay in the bin, but that does not alter the fact that the failure of the pot to be as the potter wished is the potter's fault and not the pot's. And no amount of apologetics and bleating about Free Will can alter that.
You can keep that one in hand for a suitable occasion.
I can't resist posting (or to be honest, I have to post something relevant) the reply to the 'God as Potter' analogy. The point (yours as I recall) that humans have feelings and pots don't was spot on. But when the potter analogy is used to try to shift the responsibility for our nature to the pot, I argue that 'clay remembers'. If the potter makes a pot in a certain way, then if it isn't right it is the potter's responsibility - not the pot's. The potter may indeed sling the clay in the bin, but that does not alter the fact that the failure of the pot to be as the potter wished is the potter's fault and not the pot's. And no amount of apologetics and bleating about Free Will can alter that.
You can keep that one in hand for a suitable occasion.
That's a good one my dear old scroat. I'm going to steal that.
That's a good one my dear old scroat. I'm going to steal that.
You are more than welcome to, my dear old Flume. The analogy is Paul's "Can the clay dictate to the potter?" argument, used by Christian apologists (and Paul) to get over the protest of Humungs (as the Ferengi call us) that we should not be blamed (by God) for the way we are, since God (it is claimed) made us.
The pot cannot say "It's your fault that I am imperfect, so don't punish me for it." But. just as a pot does not have feelings, it has no mind or voice. But it does have a created nature - "Clay remembers".
This was taught when Mrs Arq and I went to a pottery class and we were told that, if you mould the clay in a certain way and then decide it isn't right and try to make it do something else, it will revert to the form you made it, and nobody is to blame other than the maker; certainly not the pot. Sure - the maker can destroy the pot, but that doesn't make it the pot's fault.
Paul's analogy is simply wrong. It is 'God will not accept responsibility because you can't make him'. That's the nub of it. And it is not good, just, fair or moral. It is just dictatorship.
You are more than welcome to, my dear old Flume. The analogy is Paul's "Can the clay dictate to the potter?" argument, used by Christian apologists (and Paul) to get over the protest of Humungs (as the Ferengi call us) that we should not be blamed (by God) for the way we are, since God (it is claimed) made us.
The pot cannot say "It's your fault that I am imperfect, so don't punish me for it." But. just as a pot does not have feelings, it has no mind or voice. But it does have a created nature - "Clay remembers".
This was taught when Mrs Arq and I went to a pottery class and we were told that, if you mould the clay in a certain way and then decide it isn't right and try to make it do something else, it will revert to the form you made it, and nobody is to blame other than the maker; certainly not the pot. Sure - the maker can destroy the pot, but that doesn't make it the pot's fault.
Paul's analogy is simply wrong. It is 'God will not accept responsibility because you can't make him'. That's the nub of it. And it is not good, just, fair or moral. It is just dictatorship.
Very good posts, Transponder. This attitude is pervasive in American culture. I wonder why? As much as people don't like the common core curriculum in our schools, one thing it does address is making assertions. Kids must know when their assertions are backed by reasoning and evidence and when they are not. When I read the standards for my home state, I knew we had to change the culture in our home and unlearn all the "Christian" habits if I wanted my daughter to succeed in school.
Not sure where I heard this but academic success in 8th grade can be determined by 3rd grade social skills. There is no guidance on what social skills are being considered so I concluded it must be knowing when to declare something and knowing when not to. Or if something is declared and is meant to impact outside of the speaker, it can be challenged if the evidence and reasoning do not support it.
The word Christian was placed in quotations because I am not even sure if a specific culture is pushed in the Christian bible. Those who declare this and quote that from the bible produce reasoning that is completely different from one person to the next. Many times, the reasoning is a product of their culture. For example, the meaning of forgiveness and the behaviors associated with it can be different depending on what kind of family you grew up in. In one family, where there is no abuse, forgiveness is encouraged because people are not perfect. Here it is easy to preach to both parties that Jesus has forgiven all and so they should forgive. This is where "Jesus loves you" also comes into play. Basically, somebody has made an accusation that wasn't backed by evidence or good reasoning. Mean words were being exchanged. Being inconsiderate has occurred. Poor reasoning skills was the greatest crime.
However, in a home where abuse is happening, those teachings must not occur because they benefit the abuser, whose actions and reasons are now shaping the child in a negative way. Going back to the original list that was placed under religion, those characteristics are a sign of abuse. That is why I am very careful to not label it "According to religion..." because abuse can happen in any culture or religion.
ETA And if all we target are religious people and how they raise their children, we have not really made any meaningful progress.
Very, very good. And you expand (legitimately, I'd argue) the topic to the implications.
There are two points here that I'll name so I don't forget. (mind is going these days)
(1a) Human ethics confused with Christians ethics and (1b) the need for logical reasoning to become school curriculum, with logical reasoning, critical skills, avoiding fallacy and avoidance of fallacious thinking.
(2) bugger.
I forgot already. ...hang on... ah yes. 'workplace bullying'. Under this heading comes bullying in any social situation and forcing a peacemaking compromise is WRONG as you say, as it allows the perpetrator of the bullying to get away with it. It isn't about - as Gordon Ramsay would say (1) "Rubbing their face in it" but about facing up to what they are denying - bullying and abusive behavior (Us Spelling )
My argument on that been for a long time that Christians don't live according to Bible Morality - they live according to Human Ethics - as we all do - but they Credit it to Christianity.
This is why when the 'you need hellthreat or you'd run amok, shoot everybody and...(nope...I won't mention doing anything in the streets) civilisation would collapse.' is fielded, and we say 'If you lost your faith, would YOU start doing that?' they (usually say "No" (2) Of course they wouldn't because they are living according to social rules (or not) and THINKING that it is living according to Christian ethics, but they are not - they are simply giving the credit to religion.
It hasn't happened often, but a couple of times, deconverts did go Off the rails a bit, and I have a theory, (nope, no eyeroll for once) that this is where they Really DID grow up with bible -based morality and, when that collapsed, they had no Humanist social ethic to fall back on. I could be wrong there.
But this brings up a Problem that I find quite alarming - no social ethic. It is just like the Religious say - take religion away and they all run amok. I suggest that humanism is not being allowed to form a curriculum with teaching logical reasoning, critical thinking skills, and ethics and morality: where they come from, why we have them, how we should relate to them and why social behaviour is vital.
None of this is taught in schools and - since i don't want to believe that the politicians don't want people to start Thinking, I suggest that they don't see the need for this as they grew up being illogical, intellectually dishonest, bullying and ethically confused, because that is how THEY were brought up and it has never occurred to them that this needs to change.
Again - this ...if it is not part of the humanist agenda - backed up by the atheist one - it has to become part of it.
(1) I've been watching some old Kitchen Nightmares (US) episodes working out which bits were scripted.
(2) this leads into the denial that they are doing Good just to please God. They are doing it because it's right. Well, that's why we do it, too. How do we know it's right? Ethics. And ethics are actually humanist, not religious. religion just Hi -jacks them and adds a few riders to guarantee itself a dominant position in society.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-03-2018 at 06:11 AM..
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....make that sneezerind) , as there wasn't much else.
(mind is going these days) 
