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Family who have lived in the bonafide Deep South and also Oklahoma say the two are totally different culturally. Tulsa in particular I don't think is very southern as far as the way people behave--it seems like there's a "Tulsa Freeze" that is similar to the "Seattle Freeze" that people talk about, and that is not southern at all.
My argument has always been that around the eastern quarter to eastern third of Oklahoma is more or less Southern due to Arkansas bleedover. Most of the things that people point to as "evidence' of Oklahoma being Southern are more rural than Southern, and the two are not the same. You can find a lot of those things in almost every state if you venture outside the large cities--pickup trucks, high school football, people being more conservative/religious, country music being popular, etc. California has all of those in large parts of the state, but that doesn't make it a southern state, and the same goes for about 70-80% of Oklahoma.
Oklahoma is strongly southern influenced in many ways but it is not the "deep south". Not even close.
I think ol' EddieG is right on the money.
Anyone who does not want to acknowledge Oklahoma's overt Southernness is really more interested in disassociating Oklahoma from the South at large because of the plethora of negative stigmas and stereotypes (granted there is some truth to it here and there) that go along with Southern culture. Oklahoma is NOT part of the Deep South culturally (think Bammer, Mississippi, rural Georgia, parts of South Carolina, parts of Tennessee, and some parts of Louisiana). Anyone who claims that Oklahoma = Deep South is just misinformed, or worse, being disingenuous. Clearly, while Oklahoma is not a Deep South state/area by any stretch of the imagination, it is certainly part of the Greater South. Oklahoma, along with good parts of West Texas form the westernmost outpost/border for the cultural South at large.
Plus, the polls that have been taken in this regard always show that most Oklahomans, when given an option between the designation of living in the cultural South or the cultural Midwest, the vast majority consider themselves Southern and/or more of a derivative of Southern culture, which is how I personally view Oklahoma (along with Western Arkansas and North/West Texas). Case in point: the most recent poll taken on the Oklahoma Forum showed an overwhelmingly majority of pollsters placed Oklahoma in the cultural South, then Southwest (which was actually close), and the Midwest tally was a distant third.
Personally, I think Oklahoma is overtly Southern. Anyone outside of our Metro areas can experience this Southern culture, not just "country" culture in virtually every small town throughout The Sooner State. Heck, Southern/twangy accents can still be heard by the majority of ol' timers and some of our young people even in OKC, and most definitely in Tulsa. Just listen, it's there. And yet, this overt Southern culture is distinct from what one would find in the Deep South. People who assert that the South is just one monolithic cultural land mass without cultural distinctions and differences here and there are just flat out wrong. Oklahoma is Southern, but it is derivative of the South, not the hotbed/source of all things Southern that some may purport. Clearly, Oklahoma is most culturally similar to Western Arkansas and North/West Texas. But along with our Southernness and Native cultures, there is also a good dose of Western culture/mentality mixed in to Oklahoma's psyche. Hence, I think SOUTHwest (Oklahoma/most of Texas/Western Arkansas) is a really good way to highlight the cultural properties of Oklahoma over and above SouthWEST (New Mexico and Arizona, maybe extreme southern California).
Geographically, Oklahoma is South-Central. Always has been and always will be.
I heard a funny story on sports radio the other day here in the Metro. The commentators, Jim Trabor and Al Eshbech are local sports personalities. Trabor is from Pittsburgh originally and Eschbach is from New Jersey....and trust me, their dialect and pronunciation gives them away. They clearly do not have the typical Okie twang. I think one of the reasons both men have been well received here is the fact that they are so different than the vast majority of Oklahomans in a number of aspects. Anyhow, they were talking about college recruiting and how corrupt it is in the South with college football especially. Louisiana was singled out in particular in their discussion. Then Eschbach started talking about how backward it was throughout the South and some of the policies/cultural norms that he detested were listed. Then Trabor jumps in and basically says, "Yeh Al, but where do we live? Remember we're in Oklahoma!" Both men laughed as Trabor (from his perspective, a Yankee transplant who has lived in Oklahoma for several decades) correlated the South to Oklahoma. Take it for what it's worth. I got a kick out of their discussion. Hopefully they know that we can send their butts back to the Northeast if need be!
As somebody who has never been to the deep south, how is it culturally different from oklahoma? I'm not saying its not, I'm just curious.
The only real difference is there is a lot more racial tension in the Deep South than in Oklahoma. There is still plenty of racism here though, it's just not quite on the level of Mississippi. Aside from that culturally Oklahoma is pure Southern and has very little Midwestern or Southwestern influence. Southeast Oklahoma is called Little Dixie but I really think the entire state falls under that umbrella, with a possible exception for the Tulsa metropolitan area.
I will explain to you why Oklahoma isn't the "deep south".
Let's take a look at Jackson, Mississippi. As deep south as deep south gets. The capitol city of Mississippi. It is 80% African American. There is nothing remotely close to that in Oklahoma. Hugo and Idabel are the most African American % wise at about 25-30%. McAlester is considered the "capitol" of Little Dixie and it is about 8% African American. Contrast that to Mississippi where there are many counties that are majority black.
With these large numbers African Americans wield much more political power in the deep south than they do in Oklahoma. The African American culture in the deep south is much more entrenched than it is in Oklahoma as well.
Besides African Americans, ethnicity is much different in Oklahoma. In Mississippi, there are 13 communities that according to census data indicate that residents are 10% or more from German descent. Most of these are among the tourist towns of the gulf coast and the university communities in the state. Contrast that to Oklahoma where there are 391 communities that report having more 10% people of german origin.
I don't think Little Dixie even comes close to being "deep south." Little Dixie mirrors north Texas along the Red River and SE Arkansas in the mountainous areas. NE Oklahoma isn't deep south and is much more Native American influenced and influenced by the Ozark Highlands.
The very NE corner of Oklahoma was based on mining. The don't mine much in the deep south.
Tulsa, Bartlesville and Ponca City are oil towns. All were founded by eastern and midwestern oil men. With the exception of Louisiana that doesn't exist in the deep south.
The northwest quadrant of Oklahoma and a lot of north central Oklahoma were settled by Kansans and people from points north who were familiar with wheat farming. That certainly isn't the deep south.
Western Oklahoma is ranching/cowboy country. That isn't the deep south.
Outside of the southeastern part of the state, the climate, the terrain don't resemble anything in the deep south.
The economy doesn't remotely revolve around ANYTHING resembling the deep south.
I will grant you that the SE part of Oklahoma is more southern than anything else, SW Oklahoma is whatever near west Texas is. NW Oklahoma is kind of moves from Texanish to Kansanish as you move north with I-40 being the dividing line.
Last edited by eddie gein; 03-14-2014 at 11:39 AM..
I'd like to see an explanation for the dialect map posted above. East-central Kansas certainly does not have a southern accent (according to this Kansan married to a deep southerner). Other dialect maps I've seen elsewhere do not has the same implication.
As a teenager, I used to spend every summer in southeast Oklahoma (Poteau, Howe, Monroe), and It always felt really southern to me. The accents, the lifestyle, the food, the conservative bent of most people -- it always seemed way more southern-like than midwestern. But whatever its classification, I fell in love with southeaster Oklahoma. I grew up in Southern California, so it was special to me to leave an overpopulated urban jungle environment to spend a few months in a rural, laid-back, serene place like Oklahoma.
Southeastern Oklahoma is part of the Southeastern United States. Period. It is just as southern as Alabama or Mississippi.
The rest of Oklahoma is a cross between Arkansas and North Texas. Southern culture is dominant throughout the state. People in the Midwest laugh when people from Oklahoma try to claim it as Midwestern. I've also found that people who deny Oklahoma's southern identity are trying to avoid Oklahoma being identified with the Confederacy...which it was very much a part of. This isn't really debatable...which makes is even more comical when someone tries ever so hard to put Oklahoma in another region.
Here is yet another dialect map outlining the southern dialect.
Here are the correct regions of the United States. Factors are settlement, demographics, religion and politics.
It's not debatable people. Oklahoma is a southern state. There is nothing midwest, southwest or "western" about it, other than the extreme panhandle. The body of the state is east of the 100th meridian and is closer to the east coast than west.
Should Oklahoma be a midwest state, southern state, or both?
Quote:
Originally Posted by archer_22
I'm from Tulsa and have always wondered this. Most people here have the regular, or no-accent accent and when people move to Tulsa that do have a southern type of accent, it's usually because they're from Texas or Arkansas, but mostly Texas. Same with Oklahoma City; I used to visit that place a lot and have rarely heard a "ya'll" from anyone, but then again, I haven't met everyone who lives in Oklahoma. I also saw that somebody wrote that we eat "grits" in Oklahoma. Since when? I have never heard of anyone eating such a food here. When I think of grits, I think of Alabama or Georgia (and sometimes the movie My Cousin Vinny lol), but definitely NOT Oklahoma. When it comes to religion, I've noticed that yes, we're in the bible belt, but then again so are Missouri, Kansas, and southern parts of Illinois and Indiana. I know that a lot of this state is southern Baptist but there are also about 5,000 Jews, 6,000 Muslims, 13% Catholic, and other religions like Wicca, Unitarian, and New Age.
Geographically speaking, we're in the central plains/heartland region, west of the Mississippi River, north of Texas, and even have Oklahoma's 7th largest city named Midwest City. Wouldn't we technically qualify as a midwest state right there?
Once upon a time Oklahoma was a Southern State , and I think that the U.S. Census may still consider it Southern , but its really a combination of Southwestern ( Indian and Cowboy ) Culture...Midwestern Art Deco Buildings ( Tulsa OK ) Southern because of southern Missouri and the state of Arkansas...
Once upon a time Oklahoma was a Southern State , and I think that the U.S. Census may still consider it Southern , but its really a combination of Southwestern ( Indian and Cowboy ) Culture...Midwestern Art Deco Buildings ( Tulsa OK ) Southern because of southern Missouri and the state of Arkansas...
Wrong. Probably the most wrong post on this thread.
Oklahoma, with its rich, fertile soil and undeveloped resources, was attractive to Southerners ruined by War and Reconstruction. They came in droves, hoping to better their lot. Many of them were Confederate veterans. Like most of the towns in Indian Territory, was populated nearly exclusively by people from the Old South states.
Tulsa seems to be the only place in Oklahoma that has a small minority wishing OK was considered Midwest. Which is funny, btw...considering Tulsa is almost in Arkansas.
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They clearly do not have the typical Okie twang. I think one of the reasons both men have been well received here is the fact that they are so different than the vast majority of Oklahomans in a number of aspects. Anyhow, they were talking about college recruiting and how corrupt it is in the South with college football especially. Louisiana was singled out in particular in their discussion. Then Eschbach started talking about how backward it was throughout the South and some of the policies/cultural norms that he detested were listed. Then Trabor jumps in and basically says, "Yeh Al, but where do we live? Remember we're in Oklahoma!" Both men laughed as Trabor (from his perspective, a Yankee transplant who has lived in Oklahoma for several decades) correlated the South to Oklahoma. Take it for what it's worth. I got a kick out of their discussion. Hopefully they know that we can send their butts back to the Northeast if need be!
Should Oklahoma be a midwest state, southern state, or both?
