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Ithaca, NY has a Black mayor too. And you're right, the mountainous rural areas in the South are much less diverse because the plantations were in the flat areas (better agricultural lands). People today still don't move to the mountainous regions of the South.
The rural South having higher number of Blacks is not integration. Its nothing more than history.
WV and western VA are pretty dead. But Asheville and western NC has been gaining population, particularly retirees seeking 4 season weather, quite a bit. Eastern TN as well.
I don't think it is the Downtowns so much as the cities(big and small) tend to cover more square mileage for their population versus the more dense cities of the Northeast, even with the population loss.
Also, the cities up here tend to be more walkable in terms of infrastructure and access to public transportation.
I'd say that's debatable. The core of the cities is pretty similar to the Northeast. Of course they're smaller than NYC or Philly. But comparing two similar sized cities like Rochester and Raleigh, they're both pretty darn walkable downtown. Also, cities like Charleston, Savannah, Greenville SC are all pretty focused on their downtown areas.
I'd say that's debatable. The core of the cities is pretty similar to the Northeast. Of course they're smaller than NYC or Philly. But comparing two similar sized cities like Rochester and Raleigh, they're both pretty darn walkable downtown. Also, cities like Charleston, Savannah, Greenville SC are all pretty focused on their downtown areas.
Downtowns, sure. Once you go beyond Downtown though, those Southern cities sprawl out and become less urban/dense in their built environment. To put this into perspective, Greenville SC has about as many people as Utica within its city limits, but is about as big as Syracuse in terms of land size. So, Syracuse has about 2 and a half more people in within the same amount of land as Greenville.
Downtowns, sure. Once you go beyond Downtown though, those Southern cities sprawl out and become less urban/dense in their built environment. To put this into perspective, Greenville SC has about as many people as Utica within its city limits, but is about as big as Syracuse in terms of land size. So, Syracuse has about 2 and a half more people in within the same amount of land as Greenville.
I see what you're saying but is that a negative or a positive? I would argue that having more space with less people is a positive thing. But I guess that would depend on your preference. Hence why some people here might like the dense cities and others may prefer "suburbs in the city".
I personally believe the shift in American preference is toward these Southern / Western cities that are more sprawled. The reason is that you have a choice of dense urban (Raleigh has high rise living, believe it or not), dense suburban, ex-urban and rural areas all within the city.
27603 as an example of one zip code that has all 3: downtown, suburbs, and even rural farm areas.
Downtowns, sure. Once you go beyond Downtown though, those Southern cities sprawl out and become less urban/dense in their built environment. To put this into perspective, Greenville SC has about as many people as Utica within its city limits, but is about as big as Syracuse in terms of land size. So, Syracuse has about 2 and a half more people in within the same amount of land as Greenville.
That is true of NYC itself. You have to have car in big parts of Staten Island, Queens, certain parts of Brooklyn and even the North Bronx. Many New Yorkers (as in NYC residents) still DRIVE CARS.
And what is LI and the lower Hudson Valley (and NJ and parts of CT) but NYC's suburban sprawl?
As for bus access, areas upstate with lots of college students generally have good bus access. Towns without major colleges often have little to no bus access. Again, whether an area has good public transportation or not depends on the COUNTY, not on the REGION.
I'd say no place in the country has public transportation to the extend NYC does (and not all of NYC is even covered). Outside NYC, some other cities like Chicago, LA, Atlanta, Boston, Philly, Miami, Houston, DC) have somewhat decent public transportation. Most other places have MINIMAL public transportation at best.
Take a place like Ithaca, NY. Two groups of people would take public transportation there. College students and the outright POOR. It's not a viable lifestyle for a middle class or even a working class person to just use public transportation. Does it have more public transportation than Meridian, Mississippi? Yes, it is. Keep in mind most upstate NY towns don't have what Ithaca has in terms of public transportation. Cortland, NY has buses that STOP RUNNING at 6PM. Even more so for Cortland, public transportation is for those who don't WORK. Defacto, it doesn't exist and I would say Cortland effectively is not better than Meridian, Mississippi in terms of public transportation.
Neither Ithaca nor Cortland are accessible by train. There are some small towns in the South like Tuscaloosa and Meridian that are served by Amtrak. So in some sense there are places in the South that clearly have much of upstate Ny beat in terms of train access (only places served by Amtrak or train are Albany, Syracuse, and Buffalo).
I'd say that's debatable. The core of the cities is pretty similar to the Northeast. Of course they're smaller than NYC or Philly. But comparing two similar sized cities like Rochester and Raleigh, they're both pretty darn walkable downtown. Also, cities like Charleston, Savannah, Greenville SC are all pretty focused on their downtown areas.
I found Atlanta walkable, and I've been around Atlanta, GA on public transportation. Birmingham, AL does not have good public transportation like Atlanta. But the area from 5 points South to downtown is pretty walkable.
Miami has areas that are pretty walkable.
So I'm going to say it depends on where you are, and that there's no regional rule on this.
I see what you're saying but is that a negative or a positive? I would argue that having more space with less people is a positive thing. But I guess that would depend on your preference. Hence why some people here might like the dense cities and others may prefer "suburbs in the city".
I personally believe the shift in American preference is toward these Southern / Western cities that are more sprawled. The reason is that you have a choice of dense urban (Raleigh has high rise living, believe it or not), dense suburban, ex-urban and rural areas all within the city.
27603 as an example of one zip code that has all 3: downtown, suburbs, and even rural farm areas.
You can find those types of neighborhoods in Northeastern cities as well. The area that home is in kind of reminds me of the Valley neighborhood south of Seneca Turnpike or LaFayette Road in Syracuse. I think the difference is the degree of density in the core parts of the cities too. Annexation laws has allowed cities in those states to expand and add services to areas that formerly didn't have any due to being unincorporated. So, many times, these outer areas are just 1st/2nd ring suburbs or small town areas up here. http://goo.gl/maps/w4Tsl
Sprawl is not sustainable due to the land it takes up and with gas prices still being high and our dependency on other countries for energy, I would think that denser city would allow for less car usage and more walkability(including public transportation). There is a reason why those states have a property tax on vehicles and it is because they are more car dependent.
NYC's sprawl is dense and it has plenty of walkable communities along with access to public transportation.
Ithaca and Cortland are a small part of Upstate NY. Oswego has public transportation that runs late(11 PM or later when school is in at Oswego State) and has cheap taxi service. Buffalo has rail and a bus system. Every metro has a bus system to some degree. Ithaca and Cortland still has interstate bus service and Amtrak goes north into the Adirondacks, where places like Ticonderoga and Port Henry have stations. Amtrak Train and Bus Stations in the Northeast
You can find those types of neighborhoods in Northeastern cities as well. The area that home is in kind of reminds me of the Valley neighborhood south of Seneca Turnpike or LaFayette Road in Syracuse. I think the difference is the degree of density in the core parts of the cities too. Annexation laws has allowed cities in those states to expand and add services to areas that formerly didn't have any due to being unincorporated. So, many times, these outer areas are just 1st/2nd ring suburbs or small town areas up here. http://goo.gl/maps/w4Tsl
Sprawl is not sustainable due to the land it takes up and with gas prices still being high and our dependency on other countries for energy, I would think that denser city would allow for less car usage and more walkability(including public transportation). There is a reason why those states have a property tax on vehicles and it is because they are more car dependent.
NYC's sprawl is dense and it has plenty of walkable communities along with access to public transportation.
Ithaca and Cortland are a small part of Upstate NY. Oswego has public transportation that runs late(11 PM or later when school is in at Oswego State) and has cheap taxi service. Buffalo has rail and a bus system. Every metro has a bus system to some degree. Ithaca and Cortland still has interstate bus service and Amtrak goes north into the Adirondacks, where places like Ticonderoga and Port Henry have stations. Amtrak Train and Bus Stations in the Northeast
Everyone on Long Island drives. Ditto Westchester. Completely car dependent when doing things like grocery shopping or otherwise taking care of business. A huge percentage drive to work (though there those that take the LIRR).
NYC has its environmental problems as well. NYC is right on the ocean. All that density. What would happen if a Katrina strength hurricane hit? It was terrible enough during Sandy.
You're going from the opposite end, of trying to say NY=Good, South=Bad, While some of the others are trying to say South=Good, Northeast=Bad. This is really nothing but ridiculously simplified politics that stereotype all Northerners as liberals (not true) and all Southerners as rednecks/conservatives (not true).
HALF of households in NYC itself have cars, and the vast majority of them do in NYC's suburbs. Most New Yorkers (the state as a whole) DRIVE.
Having lived in the finger lakes, when area residents go between cities, they generally DRIVE their own cars. Intercity bus service is CROWDED only when college students are coming and going. Take the buses outside of those periods, and you'll find VERY FEW RIDERS.
Don't try to paint upstate NY as some wondrous place for public transportation when everyone not welfare or minimum wage drives. Just like the rest of America.
In NYC itself, most people who earn money at the level of basic government jobs (cops, teachers, social workers, firemen) or above drive. Its the poorer people that tend not to have cars. And NYC is really the only place that has 24 hour a day 7 day a week public transportation.
You mentioned Oswego having public transportation that shut downs at 11pm. Well, there are plenty of people who work nights. Obviously public transportation does no good. Or perhaps people may wish to go out for the weekend late, visit people, etc. Obviously that's not viable, either.
But put it like this, the mediocre public transportation upstate isn't attracting people at all. Upstate NY continues to lose population. So why even bother trying to say public transportation makes small town NY a better place?
I see what you're saying but is that a negative or a positive? I would argue that having more space with less people is a positive thing. But I guess that would depend on your preference. Hence why some people here might like the dense cities and others may prefer "suburbs in the city".
I personally believe the shift in American preference is toward these Southern / Western cities that are more sprawled. The reason is that you have a choice of dense urban (Raleigh has high rise living, believe it or not), dense suburban, ex-urban and rural areas all within the city.
27603 as an example of one zip code that has all 3: downtown, suburbs, and even rural farm areas.
Dense certainly isn't always good. Certain dense parts of NYC are extremely high crime (Brownsville, ENY). Concentrating lots of poor people in small spaces and giving them no hope of moving out produces all sorts of ILLS.
The crack cocaine era, while bad nationally, devastated dense poor neighborhoods in places like NYC, Philly, Chicago, etc. The effect on NYC was so terrible NYC, who normally elected liberal mayors, ended up electing 20 years of Republican mayors.
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Now the posts are all about "sprawl" , what does it matter if in a ten mile trip you remain within the same jurisdiction or travel through 5 different towns/villages/hamlets? My bet is the larger community has less overhead cost and layers of government than the 5 towns in the other example.
Back to the OP's original post if Florida is at/near ready to surpass NY then so be it. Upstate is never mentioned as a hot market for any demographic group and southern/western locations seem to be. All locations have their fans and detractors and business will choose what they feels best serves them.
Finally my 2 cents, the ongoing argument of rail connections and public transit seems to be a northern one. Most newer municipalities don't want to get invested in systems that only serves a marginal percentage of the community. And Amtrak expansion lacks a key feature, the ability of the traveler to get from a train station to the business location which more often than not is in the burbs not the city where the train is. Please don't give me "well with a bus/light rail system", most locations are not NY/Boston/DC where subways & buses are extensive enough to allow a train traveler to get to their meeting.
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