New Jersey - it's worth the money (Marlton: house, job market)
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A lot of what I see on our home state's thread is hinged on whether or not NJ is "worth the money". The problem is that many of the anti-NJ folks claim that it's not because of the high costs; the high costs of housing and taxes, particularly, but also the non-monetary costs regarding quality of life, laws/regulation, etc.
The simple answer is "Yes, NJ is worth the money." The longer answer is "New Jersey is worth the money to a large majority of people, but there is a small minority of people for whom NJ is not worth the money, and that minority of people would be happier elsewhere."
This is easily evidenced by the fact that the market (a regulated market, but a market system nonetheless) reflects this fact. It's basic supply and demand. There will always be a minority who prefer the option that the majority don't prefer, but the fact remains that the majority's choice is what drives prices through supply and demand.
NJ has a large demand for homes and good communities in which to live. The fact that people, of their own free wills, are choosing to buy the expensive offerings NJ has is proof that NJ is worth the high cost..
For example: Some people won't see the value in paying for filet mignon, and some others prefer to pay more filet mignon over chicken McNuggets. Same principle of supply and demand is in effect which causes NJ to be more expensive.
Obviously, a 5-year-old would find it a huge waste to pay $35 for a filet mignon when he'd rather have the chicken McNuggets, and that 5-year-old will not understand why anyone would pay more for filet when the McNuggets are obviously more desirable. Different people have different tastes. But the bottom line is, even though a 5-year-old or even 100 5-year-olds prefer chicken mcNuggets, that doesn't make chicken mcNuggets more valuable on the open market. All it means is that the 5-year-olds should choose to eat at McDonald's instead or Ruth's Chris Steak House.
If anyone tried to convince another person that Chicken McNuggets are "better" than filet mignon, his arguments would most likely be based on personal tastes. Obviously Chicken McNuggets are more attractive than filet mignon, price-wise; McNugget proponents will win the price war every time. But there's more than price at play here; value and benefits must also be factored in. To argue that some people prefer chicken McNuggets over filet mignon as a reason why others should buy chicken McNuggets or why filet is not worth the money is short-sighted. Yes, some people actually prefer McNuggets, but they are a small minority compared to most people who see the value in paying 10x more for a filet mignon.
So when anyone considers if NJ is worth the money, remember that the answer depends on the tastes of individuals, but the fact remains that a large majority state unequivocally that NJ IS worth the money, because they make that statement with their $$$, not just words.
BUT--I also think that just because you like filet mignon doesn't mean you should spend this weeks and next weeks salary on it just to eat at Ruth Chris, if you can only afford Chicken McNuggets don't get in over your head eating what you can't afford, stick to McDonalds
A lot of what I see on our home state's thread is hinged on whether or not NJ is "worth the money". The problem is that many of the anti-NJ folks claim that it's not because of the high costs; the high costs of housing and taxes, particularly, but also the non-monetary costs regarding quality of life, laws/regulation, etc.
The simple answer is "Yes, NJ is worth the money." The longer answer is "New Jersey is worth the money to a large majority of people, but there is a small minority of people for whom NJ is not worth the money, and that minority of people would be happier elsewhere."
This is easily evidenced by the fact that the market (a regulated market, but a market system nonetheless) reflects this fact. It's basic supply and demand. There will always be a minority who prefer the option that the majority don't prefer, but the fact remains that the majority's choice is what drives prices through supply and demand.
NJ has a large demand for homes and good communities in which to live. The fact that people, of their own free wills, are choosing to buy the expensive offerings NJ has is proof that NJ is worth the high cost..
For example: Some people won't see the value in paying for filet mignon, and some others prefer to pay more filet mignon over chicken McNuggets. Same principle of supply and demand is in effect which causes NJ to be more expensive.
Obviously, a 5-year-old would find it a huge waste to pay $35 for a filet mignon when he'd rather have the chicken McNuggets, and that 5-year-old will not understand why anyone would pay more for filet when the McNuggets are obviously more desirable. Different people have different tastes. But the bottom line is, even though a 5-year-old or even 100 5-year-olds prefer chicken mcNuggets, that doesn't make chicken mcNuggets more valuable on the open market. All it means is that the 5-year-olds should choose to eat at McDonald's instead or Ruth's Chris Steak House.
If anyone tried to convince another person that Chicken McNuggets are "better" than filet mignon, his arguments would most likely be based on personal tastes. Obviously Chicken McNuggets are more attractive than filet mignon, price-wise; McNugget proponents will win the price war every time. But there's more than price at play here; value and benefits must also be factored in. To argue that some people prefer chicken McNuggets over filet mignon as a reason why others should buy chicken McNuggets or why filet is not worth the money is short-sighted. Yes, some people actually prefer McNuggets, but they are a small minority compared to most people who see the value in paying 10x more for a filet mignon.
So when anyone considers if NJ is worth the money, remember that the answer depends on the tastes of individuals, but the fact remains that a large majority state unequivocally that NJ IS worth the money, because they make that statement with their $$$, not just words.
Keep in mind that NJ is a very corrupted state. We have plenty of pharmaceutical companies, industries, tax payers and yet our state is still in the RED. Our STATE PROPERTY tax is ridiculous (take a look at what folks in PA are paying!)
You tell me it doesn't make you sick when someone who lives on a golf course in Ambler PA with 3200 sq.ft. house worth $677k paying only $5200 in property taxes... and I am paying $11000 for my 2300 sq.ft. house in Marlton NJ.
Do I enjoy living in NJ , YES. Is it worth living in NJ .... NO.
Keep in mind that NJ is a very corrupted state. We have plenty of pharmaceutical companies, industries, tax payers and yet our state is still in the RED. Our STATE PROPERTY tax is ridiculous (take a look at what folks in PA are paying!)
You tell me it doesn't make you sick when someone who lives on a golf course in Ambler PA with 3200 sq.ft. house worth $677k paying only $5200 in property taxes... and I am paying $11000 for my 2300 sq.ft. house in Marlton NJ.
Do I enjoy living in NJ , YES. Is it worth living in NJ .... NO.
Interesting argument to make... as you're still here...
If I didn't think it was worth it, I'd put a plan in place to high tail it out of here and not think of myself as a victim of big bad gubmint. I wouldn't spend YEARS complaining about it on a relocation forum which accomplishes.......nothing.
Interesting argument to make... as you're still here...
But you're making the argument (which Johnny has made in past threads) that if you're not happy with things in NJ, it's as simple as packing up and leaving. For some (like me and my family two years ago) that's the case, but it's no so easy for others. What about the person who's forced to live in NJ because of a parent who's not willing to move and needs care? Or the person who bought a house at the height of the market and can't sell it now (at any price)? Or the person who just doesn't have the $$ to make a move for whatever reason?
It's nice to sit there in fantasy land and think that every resident of NJ is there because "it's worth it", but that's not reality. Given the means to do so, there are certainly thousands who would leave in a heartbeat if they could- just look at all the threads on here for evidence.
Keep in mind that NJ is a very corrupted state. We have plenty of pharmaceutical companies, industries, tax payers and yet our state is still in the RED. Our STATE PROPERTY tax is ridiculous (take a look at what folks in PA are paying!)
Keep in mind that NJ is far from being the only corrupted state - all states, in fact, have corruption in their governments. All states have their driving industries that affect corruption - farming, ranching, manufacturing, banking, etc. and yet many, many states are still in the RED. Our salaries are higher in NJ than anywhere else, so it stands to reason that the government will collect higher taxes to pay higher salaries to all their clerks, accountants, economists, chemists, etc. to be able to hire them in the first place, not to mention paying the higher costs to construction, consulting, and other comanies who pay the higher NJ to their employees (take a look at what folks in PA are getting paid!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbaypackersfan
You tell me it doesn't make you sick when someone who lives on a golf course in Ambler PA with 3200 sq.ft. house worth $677k paying only $5200 in property taxes... and I am paying $11000 for my 2300 sq.ft. house in Marlton NJ.
No, it doesn't make me sick. The person in Marlton is in a nicer town and a nicer state, closer to the Jersey Shore, closer to Philadelphia while still being in a bucolic, pretty suburb. The schools are better and the town's services are most likely better. Now, if it DID make me sick, and I lived in Marlton, I'd move. If it took me a couple years, I'd still move, but I'd move.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbaypackersfan
Do I enjoy living in NJ , YES. Is it worth living in NJ .... NO.
Wouldn't a person enjoy living someplace more where he felt it was more worth it? And what would stop such a move from happening, if not right away, within a couple of years??? And if someone is planning on moving, why would that person be that upset about the costs if he knows he'll be out of there relatively soon?
I just find it hard to accept that people REALLY think it's "not worth it" when that's the choice they make with their money. I think a BMW is a nice car, but I don't think it's "worth" it since it's more money, rear-wheel drive, and has a worse reliability record than a Lexus, so it would be foolish of me to buy a BMW and then complain that it's not worth it; it would be more foolish of me to just go on keeping it instead of figuring out a way to get rid of it and replace it with a less expensive, more reliable, more "worth it" car. I can't understand why someone wouldn't make a change but would still complain.
Hey you know there is an alternate argument. NJ is great but too expensive. We are not getting enough bang for our buck. A better analogy is we are in a Cadillac state paying Roll Royce taxes. I don't subscribe to the NJ love it or leave it theory.
But you're making the argument (which Johnny has made in past threads) that if you're not happy with things in NJ, it's as simple as packing up and leaving. For some (like me and my family two years ago) that's the case, but it's no so easy for others. What about the person who's forced to live in NJ because of a parent who's not willing to move and needs care? Or the person who bought a house at the height of the market and can't sell it now (at any price)? Or the person who just doesn't have the $$ to make a move for whatever reason?
It's nice to sit there in fantasy land and think that every resident of NJ is there because "it's worth it", but that's not reality. Given the means to do so, there are certainly thousands who would leave in a heartbeat if they could- just look at all the threads on here for evidence.
The problem is that it's unrealistic to think there are that many people "stuck" in NJ. Anybody who bought a home anywhere at the height of the housing bubble is stuck, whether in NJ or Atlanta or anywhere else. And those people who bought then knew they were getting into higher taxes than other parts of the nation. It's unrealistic, to me, that someone would have bought 5 years ago and gone from choosing to buy to wnting out so desperately only 5 years later.
Also, while it's unrealistic to think people can move as quickly as they would be able to buy a car, it can still be done relatively easily by anyone within a 1 or 2 year timeframe. If another place is that much better and cheaper, it should be pretty easy, in fact. But a lot of the complaints come from people who have lived here a long time, never made an attempt to leave, and have no plans to leave.
No matter my situation, if I liked someplace else better, I'd at the very least be in the middle of my plan to leave; I certainly wouldn't go on living here for years and years, complaining all the while.
My theory, which I have seen evidence for in many people I know, is that they like to talk about leaving and when they "try" they encounter a sluggish job market with much lower salaries in their new-found utopias and then realize they aren't willing to give up the job opportunity/ies they have in NJ. So they continue to stay and enjoy the benefit of a good, high-paying job and/or business opportunities and they focus their complaints on taxes, housing costs, traffic, and anything else while ignoring the fact they have good jobs and higher salaries than elsewhere.
Bottom line is that it's a free country and people have freedom to choose where they spend their money and where they live, and people are proving that the high costs of living in NJ are justifiable by the fact that the prices are paid in the open market.
Yes, some people will prefer the $100,000 5BR 2.5 BA way out in the middle of fields, hours from a city; but they are in the minority. If they were the majority, then the price for that home would be higher. The people whose preference is for the item that is less desirable to others wins by being in the minority. People who have a taste for McDonald's McNuggets over filet mignon are lucky that the food they prefer is the cheaper one; but the fact remains that MOST people will find filet mignon to be preferable.
NJ is filet mignon; people who are lucky enough to have tastes that go along with the minority and prefer McNuggets, or Whopper Jr.'s, or hot dogs, or whatever else have a wide choice of fast food options and will save money, but they shouldn't believe that at any moment they're actually eating filet mignon, because they're not.
People are willing to pay for NJ (at least northern and central parts) because of its proximity to the city. It's as simple as that!
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And what would stop such a move from happening, if not right away, within a couple of years??? And if someone is planning on moving, why would that person be that upset about the costs if he knows he'll be out of there relatively soon? 
