In what ways is Southern Missouri southern, and in what ways is it not? (Kansas City: headhunters, house)

[Silvermouse]

Originally Posted by Nu2pomona

It's been interesting reading through these posts.

Very good post. Liked that last part!

[ozarksboy]

Originally Posted by Hillman

I've been trying to change this.I've been planting hundreds of Pine trees every year on my place for the past several years.They are my Babies.

Oh other things I'm working on Good Grits,Squirrel Dogs,Mud Bug Eating,Catfish and Goobers.

hillman

Hillman,
I wish more Ozarkers were like you. Unfortunately, you can see the whole doggone place being homogenized right before your eyes. It used to be a distinct region, but it's losing its distinctiveness daily. Too many outside influences moving in; too much "diversity," too few hillmen.
OB

[ajf131]

Originally Posted by Nu2pomona

It's been interesting reading through these posts. To a family from a northern state like Wisconsin, the Ozarks seem very southern. I look at the seed catalogs and shake my head in disbelief when they lump Missouri and Wisconsin in the same growing zone. That's simply nuts. The growing season easily starts a month earlier and lasts six to eight weeks longer than it does in east central Wisconsin.

I'm in Howell County, and all of our restaurants sell sweet tea. As a matter of fact, if you order iced tea and don't specify unsweetened, sweet tea is what you'll get.

Hotel breakfast buffets all have bisquits and gravy, something you'll not find in Minnesota, Michigan, Wisconsin and the upper part of Illinois. Brown beans are another restaurant staple that simply is not found in those states. We do serve "baked" beans, sweetened with brown sugar and loaded with chucks of either bacon or pork fat, but you won't find them on a restaurant menu, just at picnics and barbeques.

There's another difference. Here, barbeque is pulled pork or beef served with sauce on the side. Back there, a barbeque could be burgers and bratwurst on the grill, racks of ribs, precooked in beer, or chunks of chicken, slathered with sticky sauce. A "barbeque" is an event, not a food item.

In those northern states I mentioned, fish fry is generally served on Friday nights only and the fish would not be catfish. It should be fresh water perch, but in the last few years it is more than likely cod or haddock, breaded and deep fried.

Here, it is common to see men in restaurants with bib overhauls, something you'd never see in most parts of the states that border on Canada. Here, cowboy boots are common place. There, not so much.

There, you can choose from ten different kinds of rye breads in the food stores. Here you're lucky to find one.

Nothing wrong with any of this stuff (in case OB reads this), I'm not complaining, just pointing out the differences.

The part of Missouri you are in is very unlike the rest of the state. You are practically on the border of Arkansas, in the very far southern part of the state. In most of the state, biscuits and gravy and sweet tea are pretty hard to come by. I haven't seen bib overalls anywhere around this part of it, let alone most of Missouri. However, I don't doubt that they are around where you are. The growing season there being different doesn't surprise me...I consider that part of the state to be Southern anyway. None of what you are describing on the menus there is served in most of the restaurants in the state I've eaten at, only in the far southern parts.

[Silvermouse]

Originally Posted by ajf131

In most of the state, biscuits and gravy and sweet tea are pretty hard to come by.

We live just 100 miles from St. Louis and there is still plenty of biscuits, gravy and sweet tea in our restaurants.

[ajf131]

Originally Posted by Silvermouse

We live just 100 miles from St. Louis and there is still plenty of biscuits, gravy and sweet tea in our restaurants.

Where in Missouri are you exactly? Around Cape Girardeau? The availability of Southern cuisine that you are describing is definitely not something I have seen in most of Southern Missouri...I have traveled the entire I-44, I-55, and U.S. 61/67 corridors in Missouri numerous times, stopped and eaten at places, and it seemed like once I was north of Cape Girardeau, Springfield, and Joplin, sweet tea evaporated except for Cracker Barrel and Waffle House. Springfield and Joplin may have sweet tea now, but I know for a fact that 40 years ago they did not have it. In any case, I remember having sweet tea at a restaurant 4 years ago in Terre Haute, Indiana, that wasn't a cracker barrel or a franchise, and there is no way in hell I would call that area Southern. That is the farthest north I've seen a sweet tea restaurant that wasn't a franchise, and it is the only one in that area I've ever seen, and I've been to that area a lot. Kentucky is only 100 miles to the south though, and I know it can be found in Southern Indiana and Southern Illinois. The one thing I can say is that the extent to which it exists in Southern Missouri probably is not anywhere near the availability of it in Kentucky. Southern Missouri, Southern Indiana, and Southern Illinois all border on the south but I know for a fact that Southern cuisine is generally much harder to find in these places than almost anywhere in Kentucky. From the way you are talking about it being heavily favored, I can only assume you must live along the I-55 corridor. I know it can be found in some places in Missouri, but in most of the state it is not the predominant cuisine. Around St. Louis at least and along most of the I-44, I-55, I-70, I-29, and U.S. 61 corridors, finding a restaurant with sweet tea is difficult. The franchise restaurants only recently began introducing it...I know for a fact that 2 or 3 years ago, places like Mickey D's and White Castle didn't serve it. So what makes Southern Missouri southern I guess is that there is some southern culture present in the state, but it is definitely far from being predominant, even around Springfield and Joplin, there is just no way I would call those places southern enough to be the true south. Louisville, Kentucky is far more southern than both of those places. It is further north in latitude, but south of the Ohio River, and in Missouri, southern culture roughly extends due west and maybe slightly north of the latitude where the Ohio hits the Mississippi. One can tell this by looking at a dialect map. As someone else pointed out also, Southern speech patterns, while they are there, are not the dominating dialect.

[OA 5599]

Originally Posted by ajf131

The part of Missouri you are in is very unlike the rest of the state. You are practically on the border of Arkansas, in the very far southern part of the state. In most of the state, biscuits and gravy and sweet tea are pretty hard to come by. I haven't seen bib overalls anywhere around this part of it, let alone most of Missouri. However, I don't doubt that they are around where you are. The growing season there being different doesn't surprise me...I consider that part of the state to be Southern anyway. None of what you are describing on the menus there is served in most of the restaurants in the state I've eaten at, only in the far southern parts.

I grew up in Howell County. There is some southern influence down there, for sure, but I wouldn't call it the South. Most people in that area do not self-identify as Southerners. The self-identification is usually more along the lines of being country-folk, outdoorsmen, or good-old-boys (there is nothing wrong with any of those things). You will see a fair amount of Rebel flags in that area, and yes, people wearing bib overalls out to dinner.

The accent isn't southern either...it is more of a think Midwestern drawl, like you'll find in Kansas, or other parts of the lower Midwest. Once you cross the border over to Arkansas, it does start feeling a lot more southern, and the accent also changes to more of a traditional Southern accent.

Come to think of it, it has been way too long since I've had some biscuits and gravy. It is definitely a very common breakfast in that part of the world. I'd kill for a good plate of it right now...not sure where I'd find some down here...this part of Texas might as well be California. Guess I'll have to fix up a batch myself

[ajf131]

Originally Posted by OA 5599

I grew up in Howell County. There is some southern influence down there, for sure, but I wouldn't call it the South. Most people in that area do not self-identify as Southerners. The self-identification is usually more along the lines of being country-folk, outdoorsmen, or good-old-boys (there is nothing wrong with any of those things). You will see a fair amount of Rebel flags in that area, and yes, people wearing bib overalls out to dinner.

The accent isn't southern either...it is more of a think Midwestern drawl, like you'll find in Kansas, or other parts of the lower Midwest. Once you cross the border over to Arkansas, it does start feeling a lot more southern, and the accent also changes to more of a traditional Southern accent.

Come to think of it, it has been way too long since I've had some biscuits and gravy. It is definitely a very common breakfast in that part of the world. I'd kill for a good plate of it right now...not sure where I'd find some down here...this part of Texas might as well be California. Guess I'll have to fix up a batch myself

Is the kind of accent you are describing sort of like Mel Carnahan's accent? He was raised in Carter County, which I think is nearby. All I know is that two summers ago, I remember having an in-depth conversation with one of the customers at the job I was working...he was up here visiting his daughter...he looked to be in his early 60s...he was from the bootheel, and his accent was unmistakably southern...it surprises me that Howell County is different, although the bootheel is technically south of the Arkansas border. I met someone from Poplar Bluff and they didn't sound much different. But I'll take your word for it.

[OA 5599]

Originally Posted by ajf131

Is the kind of accent you are describing sort of like Mel Carnahan's accent? He was raised in Carter County, which I think is nearby. All I know is that two summers ago, I remember having an in-depth conversation with one of the customers at the job I was working...he was up here visiting his daughter...he looked to be in his early 60s...he was from the bootheel, and his accent was unmistakably southern...it surprises me that Howell County is different, although the bootheel is technically south of the Arkansas border. I met someone from Poplar Bluff and they didn't sound much different. But I'll take your word for it.

I don't remember what Carnahan sounded like speaking (it was a said day when we lost him in that plane crash). He was born in Birch Tree, MO, which is very close to Howell County. I'm not sure where he grew up, although Wikipedia says he graduated from high school in Washington, DC.

Howell County and the bootheel are very different places. Howell County is made up of forests and rolling (to sometimes steep) hills and cattle pastures, while the bootheel is flatter than a pancake and crop fields are everywhere. The bootheel also has a fairly large black population, while Howell County is over 95% white. The accent in most of south-central Missouri sound kind of like a Southern accent, but not really. I can tell the two apart very easily. It is really hard to describe, you just have to go down to that part of the world and talk to some people

[Silvermouse]

Originally Posted by ajf131

Where in Missouri are you exactly? Around Cape Girardeau?

No, I live in Rolla. I've seen biscuits and gravy and sweet tea all over the place in Missouri. No boiled peanuts though...thank goodness.

[ajf131]

Originally Posted by Silvermouse

No, I live in Rolla. I've seen biscuits and gravy and sweet tea all over the place in Missouri. No boiled peanuts though...thank goodness.

Sweet tea and biscuits and gravy may be in parts of Southern Missouri, but as to all over the state I'm going to strongly, strongly disagree. The Northern half of the state is devoid of those. St. Louis and Kansas City don't have 'em except in Cracker Barrels. If it was available all over the place in Missouri, these two cities would be heaviy promoting it no doubt. Rolla really surprises me. When I was there I couldn't find a drop. Along the Interstate 55 corridor I couldn't find sweet tea until I was in Sikeston, Missouri. I'm sure sweet tea is available to a somewhat degree around Rolla, but I'm still in doubt as to whether you can get anywhere in Southern Missouri, in fact I know you can't. When my dad was growing up in Joplin, sweet tea wasn't served. So my guess is that it has recently started appearing. I like sweet tea and look long and hard for it 4 years ago and was let down by most of Missouri. I doubt it is still available to the degree that you can get it in almost any restaurant. I would imagine that is really far south in the state.