Does Missouri have any of the magic of the Southern States? (St. Louis: school, college)

[Klassyhk]

lolol at mosep's internet tough guy meme!

[Klassyhk]

Originally Posted by MOforthewin

During the civil war almost all the people in FL lived in North FL. Orlando on south hardly anyone lived there. Was all woods and swamps.

Weren't some Native Americans tribes still in Florida during the 1860s? Or, had their land all been stolen by that point and they forcible removed / marched to death en route to reservations in territories in points west (such as would become Oklahoma) by that point?

[MOforthewin]

Originally Posted by Klassyhk

Someone like "her", do you mean African-American?

Are you trying to say an African-American would NEVER be elected to a state office in MO?

Not only that but very far left more than Obama.

Actually, Bev Randles probably would have been elected Lt. governor if she had won in the primary instead of Mike Parson since she's conservative. Probably would have been a better choice since Parson seems to be part of the establishment.

If Eric Greitens was one of the good ole boys he wouldn't have been forced out of office for the favorite, Mike Parson. If Bev was lt. governor they probably wouldn't have forced Greitens out of office because she'd been an outsider too.

[SunGrins]

Originally Posted by MOforthewin

True, but many of them sides with the Confederate still, at least in the Missouri and Arkansas counties.

Missouri history is very complex -- especially the period of the Civil War. Many people wanted to remain outside of the conflict. Missouri voted for Stephan Douglas in 1860...The only state that did. My wife's family were farmers in Shannon County. Her direct ancestor served in the Legislature, elected in 1860. He went home when the Legislature fled Jefferson City -- not to Neosho. His son was in the MSG and fought at Wilson's Creek and then went home, refusing to join the Confederacy. The issue at that time was more about Federal bullying and heavy-handed belligerence than slavery. He was also a county elected official and spent the war trying to keep both sides at bay and minimize the local impact of the war. Although he apparently never took "the oath" he was so respected by the locals that he was reelected to public office several times after the war. Another county I'm familiar with broke down into civil violence largely based on what position the local church preachers took during the war. The war was truly a civil war more than most places further south and the motivations were not always clear. It started earlier than elsewhere and lingered for years afterward.

As far as population goes, Missouri is overwhelmingly midwestern. That geographic portion dubbed southern or mostly southern is relatively sparsely populated.

[GunnerTHB]

Originally Posted by SunGrins

Missouri history is very complex -- especially the period of the Civil War. Many people wanted to remain outside of the conflict. Missouri voted for Stephan Douglas in 1860...The only state that did. My wife's family were farmers in Shannon County. Her direct ancestor served in the Legislature, elected in 1860. He went home when the Legislature fled Jefferson City -- not to Neosho. His son was in the MSG and fought at Wilson's Creek and then went home, refusing to join the Confederacy. The issue at that time was more about Federal bullying and heavy-handed belligerence than slavery. He was also a county elected official and spent the war trying to keep both sides at bay and minimize the local impact of the war. Although he apparently never took "the oath" he was so respected by the locals that he was reelected to public office several times after the war. Another county I'm familiar with broke down into civil violence largely based on what position the local church preachers took during the war. The war was truly a civil war more than most places further south and the motivations were not always clear. It started earlier than elsewhere and lingered for years afterward.

As far as population goes, Missouri is overwhelmingly midwestern. That geographic portion dubbed southern or mostly southern is relatively sparsely populated.

Agreed. The Ozarks were a frontier at the time of the civil war, being settled by people who primarily wanted to be left alone. Where people did take up sides, it got very ugly, and it didn't have much to do with the Union or Confederate armies. The Mississippi River & French control scrambled the settlement patterns for Missouri compared to states to the east.

[JackSprague]

Originally Posted by Klassyhk

lolol at mosep's internet tough guy meme!

Gave you reps - Mosep is a cowardly troll on the STL forums, ambiguous in his/her sexual orientation and trollishly refers everyone to Pasadena Hills. Pay no mind to the Mosep behind the sewer (likely his/her/it's home in Ferguson).

[MOforthewin]

Originally Posted by GunnerTHB

Agreed. The Ozarks were a frontier at the time of the civil war, being settled by people who primarily wanted to be left alone. Where people did take up sides, it got very ugly, and it didn't have much to do with the Union or Confederate armies. The Mississippi River & French control scrambled the settlement patterns for Missouri compared to states to the east.

It's still like that today too in the Ozarks regarding politics.

Same thing with Eastern Tn, Eastern KY as well. Of course the Ozarks were settled from people that originated from those regions as well. During the Civil War Eastern KY, WV and eastern TN didn't want to be involved. In fact eastern TN nearly broke away.


The strange thing is that before the civil rights act passed places such as the Ozarks of southern Missouri and Northern Arkansas and Eastern TN voted republican while the rest of those states generally voted with the democrats.


On maps from that time you can clearly trace out the Ozarks in Arkansas and Missouri by county because they voted Republican.

Ironically after the civil war places like southern Missouri Ozarks, especially SWMO, northern Arkansas Ozarks and the Smokey mountain areas of TN were known to have hatred towards people of color. There is actually a couple books about southwest MO Ozarks (Joplin, Springfield) and Northern Arkansas about the lynching that went on.

To this day you don't see a lot of blacks in the Ozarks still.

I just find it odd why those areas I listed such as AR, MO, Eastern TN the upper south voted Republican while the rest were voting Democrat.

The upper south differed a lot from the deep south in the Civil war hence why they were more hesitant to seceded at first or in Kentucky's case the lawmakers were very pro union which even their governor whished to remain neutral while many of Missouri's lawmakers were pro confederate.

I think that is the ultimate reason MO didn't get under total Confederate control. Claiborne Jackson was quite vocal about taking Missouri into the Confederacy which alarmed Lincoln and caused him to quickly invade Missouri without giving MO time to mobilize and putting lawmakers on the run.

I think the union would have invaded Missouri eventually anyway due to the strategic location even if they wished to remain out of it.

What Jackson should have simply done was refused Lincoln's request for men and stayed neutral. Then if the union decided to heavy hand Missouri and invade Missouri anyway THEN go full out Confederate.

Reason why is because then this would possibly cause more Missourian's to side with the governor because they tried everything they could to stay neutral but the union decided to invade anyway.

I think THAT would have been the better strategy. If the governor would have taken a full neutral stance and let the union make the first move.

Also I wouldn't call Missouri overwhelmingly Midwestern. 25 percent of the state is in the south and 25 percent transition zone. No other Midwest state has geographic parts IN the south like MO has a decent chunk of it. The politics, religion and southern dialect cover the southern quarter of the state. Missouri is a midwestern state but not overwhelmingly MW like Kansas, Iowa, IL etc. Even parts of Missouri that are outside that transition zone still have a different feel as well compared to when I'm in other MW states. It could be because it is a border state, I dunno but even being in places like St. Charles County outside the transition zone it just feels a tad different than other Midwest states. I dunno how to put it.

If someone is going to say that, then FL has to be less southern because none of the major cities here in FL are even close to being southern except Jacksonville has some influences. Only parts that are really southern is some sections of the Pan Handle and in North FL. The overall population of FL is less southern percentage wise than MO imo. In the state you will hear far far more new England accents than southernish ones. The areas in the northern part of the state that are Dixie are in some cases even less populated than parts of southern MO.

[SunGrins]

Geography and population density might tell the tale. I doubt that 25% of the state population can be considered "southern" -- even 10-15% might be a stretch. Those counties are mostly rocks, trees, or plowed fields.

Prejudice against blacks was pretty blatant in that southern tier and the bootheel not that long ago. Maybe it's better now. Minorities were wary of going there and I recall a few ugly incidents with some of my employees and stories that were passed on.

[MOforthewin]

Originally Posted by SunGrins

Geography and population density might tell the tale. I doubt that 25% of the state population can be considered "southern" -- even 10-15% might be a stretch. Those counties are mostly rocks, trees, or plowed fields.

Prejudice against blacks was pretty blatant in that southern tier and the bootheel not that long ago. Maybe it's better now. Minorities were wary of going there and I recall a few ugly incidents with some of my employees and stories that were passed on.

I've heard stories about Ft. Leonard Wood area as well too. My dad was stationed there in the 60s and said it was a lot of rednecks, trashy type of people too. Last time I drove in that region it looked poor.

I would think 20-25 percent. If you use the line of highway 60 across the state. Also north of highway 60 there are still some areas that are southern in pockets such as Jackson Missouri.

You got towns like Jackson, Cape Girardeau, Sikeston, Poplar Bluff, West Plains, Branson, Cabool, Mountain View, Neosho, Caruthersville and also Springfield which is right on the line as well.

If you're going by the number of counties that are in the south in MO it's about 25-27 counties adding all the counties in far southern Missouri.

Also north of that area you then have the transition zone which some towns lean more towards one of the other.

What parts of the Ozarks and the Bootheel was this that your employees hated going to? I can see how some people would feel uncomfortable going in counties like Iron or Shannon County for example. I know deep in the Ozarks in far southern MO like Iron County has a klan problem.

[FalstaffBlues]

Sympathizing and aligning with the south doesn't make you southern. It makes you confused.

Go to the actual South and there Ozark Missourians are Yankees just the same