What you NEED to know before moving your family to MADISON! (Fitchburg: apartments, condos)
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I'm happy to address your concerns, fryguy. You can locate the incredible amount of sex offenders (registered ones over age 18) online. Under 18 offenders are NOT shown on the map, their rights are protected, but your children's are NOT. Our child was sexually assaulted by a minor babysitter here (neighbor, age 16) and I can speak VERY factually to system and process in place as well as the police force abilities. The D.A. is fairly good as are the courts, however the system in Madison is OVERWHELMED with child sexual abuse and assaults.
You can request more information on this from SAFEHARBOR or RAINBOW PROJECT in downtown Madison as far as numbers. The protocol they have set up is to have children complete testimony and start treatment within 72 hours, their current overload of cases carries this out of a few months. The police do not follow protocol and subject children to unnecessary trauma due to poor training. There are SO many sexual assault cases of very young children here (under age 10)...it is VERY disturbing. I urge you to look into it, you will find every fact you wish for. Police are happy to give parking tickets (pretty sure this is a well known fact here for those who are not parking in their employer parking lot all day), they do not do actual police work well - look at the ratio of unsolved murders and serious crimes. I agree, this IS an important fact to consider and I really hope you will amend your post to factual information you can obtain from the above agencies.
I love fireworks, for 1 or 2 nights, not for 5-7 nights in a row every night from 9:30-midnight when we have young children trying to sleep! Most people would agree that is a bit much. Snowblowers are fine, except when your neighbors violate city ordinance by operating them at high decibel levels, from midnight until 6am, each one rotating after the next neighbor stops because it is NOT the neighbor but a company they have hired (landscapers in winter season) who do them on a snowski with a plow attached. It takes 45 minutes per house and 5-6 hours straight of high decibel noise with police not enforcing laws on the book, prevents others from getting rest to go to work the next day! It's inconsiderate (and illegal), but there is no enforcement and no consideration. Did I mention none of our neighbors go to work before 8am? So the driveways need to be blown again after 6am when the hired snowblower leaves the street! Would enjoy your comments on this!
I am truly sorry about your experience. I went on the sex offender registry(National Sex Offender Registry). I looked at 3 cities that are about the same size as Madison (population 233,209 per Wikipedia): Lincoln, NE(258,379), Winston-Salem, NC (229,617), and Baton Rouge, LA (229,493). All four of these cities are college towns and 3 are state capitals. Winston-Salem is about 40% less dense than the other 3. I took what I agree is a crude measure: Number of registered sex offenders within 3 miles of the city center. The first thing I noticed was, "Wow! there are a ton of sex offenders" Here are the other results I came up with.
Remember, that Winston-Salem has 57% of the population density of Madison, which means it's number should be lower, all other things being equal. While I think that these numbers are astoundingly high, I feel Madison is doing OK comparatively. I admit, i didn't break it down for offenses against children. I made the assumption (perhaps erroneously) that the percentages would likely be the same and that total offenders would be a good proxy for child offenders. I also can't speak to unpublished data you may have been privy to, but according to this, Madison is not a haven for sex offenders. Again, I am sorry that you had what sounds like a terrible experience, but I think your portrayal is unfair.
As far as the snowblowing, I don't have a good answer. I have to be to work early. I have to drive. I cannot leave my driveway if there is a foot of snow on the ground. These facts are unchangeable. I must plow, sometimes early in the morning. I understand your being upset because it wakes you up, but if a cop wrote me a ticket because I was trying to get to work, I would be incensed. I think it is just part of living up here. Plus, a professional company will certainly plow faster than I can, which means much less time with loud noise. I don't know the solution. But it comes down to your convenience vs someone else's. These situations are hard to resolve. I agree there are noise ordinances, but I don't think they were designed to trap people in their homes. The ordinance also specifically uses the term unreasonable (NPC Law Library: Madison, WI Noise Ordinance), which might not apply to snowblowing.
The fireworks can be annoying. They scare the crap out of my dogs which is not fun in the middle of the night. I don't have a good response. I also truly don't know if it's unique to here.
Obviously, your circumstances will greatly affect your experience!
I am by no means trying to make Madison sound "like a hellhole," I am sharing the point of view of a STAY AT HOME MOTHER WITH YOUNG CHILDREN (under age 5) living on the WEST SIDE as a HOMEOWNER! If you are childless, working full time outside the home, living in a different part of the city, renting an apartment, making over $100k, or into bar hopping with college buddies on weeknights...you will probably love Madison and your opinions will be opposite of mine. From discussing this with multiple mothers with young children, I have found my opinions to be in line with many others who have moved here in similar situations.
Despite the posted personal attacks, the facts are:
1. Cold temperatures slow metabolism and cause weight retention! You can eat the same, exercise the same, and still gain weight. Snow to your thighs will also keep most parents will young children inside with restricted activities, which can also contribute to a change to caloric output. You cannot build snowmen or snowballs until the temps raise generally in February or March (which is what most young children, under age 5, will want to do).
2. The human body cannot produce "happy hormones" without sunshine (hence the raging market on full spectrum indoor lighting here in Madison). If you are a robot, on happy pills, or really enjoy the craft beer market that Madison has to offer, you may not notice. I do not drink alcohol, I do not have happy lights or pills, and I do try my very best to get 15 minutes of sunshine everyday for vitamin D (fyi all ppl at this latitude are suggested to take supplments per PCP).
On a personal note, your assumption that I do not like winter is wrong. I LOVE LOVE LOVE winter cold...absolutely LOVE it...my favorite days are around 15 degrees because the air is so clear and you can be outside for long periods of time with minimal protection. BUT constant clouds for weeks and months on end with only a handful of sunny days (think Seattle and their high suicide rate) WILL affect most people and their ability to remain healthy physically and mentally (sciences supports these points).
Cost of living (homeowner): The cost is NOT comparable to other college towns in the fact that you must rely on private indoor businesses for more than half of the year, at extreme costs, to entertain and socialize young children outside of the subzero temps. This was an oversight on my part when factoring in cost of living and I want to be sure other families realize the need to factor in the approx. 9 months of indoor activity costs for their children, not to mention the 3 months of summer activities you may want to enroll them in.
The 3/4 year possibility of winter also makes the utilities an extreme cost, things you cannot factor in until you have moved in. This obviously depends on where you live, if you are in an apartment versus a house...you would not understand the high cost of living relating to utilities (you are more insulated in apts) or property tax bills if you do not own a house.
And just for the record, "Milwaukee City" and I butted heads much while I defended the facts of Madison prior to moving here but I can defintely understand where he is coming from after living here for a couple of years -- Madison has a mask over it but for those looking for good places to raise their children, it is not all it appears to be - it is important to look past the rainbow and see the rain clouds to make a wise and educated decision. Of course no place is perfect, but you have the right to choose what area you wish to experience the negatives in...our priorities will be different than yours, but this forum allows you the opportunity to make an educated decision with full disclosure.
CRIME UPDATE: On the crime note...a few more stabbings reported on the news this weekend! Why do these people stab?! Yikes.
POLITICS/MATURITY: Now about the maturity levels (something I neglected to mention prior though you may have stumbled upon it as the replies to my post have appeared from fellow Madisonians)...if you are a fast paced adult who likes to work on a rational level, you may not be happy here in Madison. It can be very frustrating dealing with those who are childish though they appear in grownup suits ;-) for example, last night on the news it was announced that the state Republicans actually had pretend Democrats put up on the ballet so they would have to hold a primary and it would allow the Republicans in office to stay longer since the elections would take time with competitors to the seats on the Demo side. This is just the tip of a ridiculous iceberg in WI currently in the political spectrum and it certainly carries over into the population -- personally, regardless of which side you agree with, I think they should all grow up and do your job, stop playing games and wasting time/money, set an example and stop making a mockery of it all. It's all just silly and a bit much when your toddlers behave more appropriately than the adults and leaders around. So if you're not into a political circus (and yes, it does carry into most places around Madison b/c ppl here are talking about sports or politics just about everywhere), this is probably not the place for you. Our 5 year old is constantly asking why these people are behaving in such ways...if a 5 yr old gets it, why can't adults? It's just a bit more in your everyday life and you can't escape it here (as shown above by random Madisonians attempting to belittle my opinions above), though obviously childishness can be found anywhere - just moreso in some places than others. Just a consideration for those adults out there making decisions on where to raise their family, if you are thinking about Madison as a possibility.
Once again, if you are inside all day working without young children to entertain (like fryguy), you probably are just fine anywhere (afterall, it's all artificial lighting and something to focus on). My post is to those who actually have to live 24-7 in Madison trying to entertain and care for young children throughout the year.
I am glad you qualified your comments that they are specific to stay at home moms. I am sorry if you thought I was making personal attacks on you.
However, I stand by my assertion that you are being unfair. Most of the things you cite are not specific to Madison, but specific to the upper Midwest or even the upper half of the country. I think if you compared Madison to a city like Ann Arbor, you would find many of the same issues: Constant cold, unending winter, gray skies (even though I have found Wisconsin to be MUCH sunnier than Michigan in the winter). This will necessitate staying indoors longer and spending more on energy costs.
As far as the health consequences, yes, most people in northern latitudes are Vitamin D deficient. I do think that Seasonal Affective Disorder exists (but not at the rate people claim it does). I do not think these issues are specific to Madison, WI. Neither is winter weight gain.
I still maintain that your misery would likely have been avoided if you had accepted prior to moving here " I cannot deal with the Midwest winters." If I had kids, I probably wouldn't be able to deal with them either. In fact if you ask me in February or March, I will probably will tell you I can't live with it, at all, kids or no. I hate the winter here. But I realize that to avoid it and it's problems I have to move South, which introduces a different set of problems.
As far of the politics: I have two words Washington, DC ( I realize DC isn't really a word, but bear with me). It's not just here. The silliness is everywhere. We are just on TV all the time.
It is really funny that I sound like such a cheerleader for the city. I moved here a year ago and defended it to people before I knew what it was about. It definitely has warts. This year has been the hardest of my life. The winter was too long, it's hard to make friends (really hard), I don't like some of the attitudes here, and the union/non-union thing is downright annoying. There or way too many hippies (or wanna-be hippies) and I think sometimes it pervades the culture of the city to its detriment. There is weekly discussion between my wife and me about moving. She hates it here more than I do. But like I had said before I think your comments are unfair.
Most unhappy people can find the answer they want in the mirror. There is a certain group of people wandering looking for THE PLACE. No such thing. Positve people can be happy just about anywhere. Negative--not so much. See it in Seattle where I live now all the time.
I'm a native Wisconsinite who has lived in Israel(seven years), suburb of Dallas, TX (10 years), Austin, TX (1year), and we are about to move to Albuquerque, NM. I tend to agree with Badger, but moving to a new place can be very difficult. The first couple of years are the hardest in my experience.
It sounds like the OP is suffering from some kind of depression. Being a stay-at-home mom can be very isolating, I know because I have been there. I would recommend getting a part-time job just to get out in the world with adults.
I'd also like to say that I would move back to Madison in a heartbeat. I know the winters are hard, but I love the seasons. I have been very happy here in Texas, so I'm not complaining, but we have had 100 degree or higher temps here for months already with no end in sight. Our electric bills alone are over 350 dollars for four months of the year.
Clearly, Madison is not a good fit for the OP, but I fear that people coming to this board will have a very twisted view of Madison. I can assure people that Madison isn't a place filled with perverts and slackers. In fact, I have friends who were managers in Wisconsin and who moved to other parts of the country and found that the work ethic in these places was far less than that in Wisconsin. When you drive through even small, poor towns in WI, they are generally tidy and neat. This isn't true here in Texas and the South.
I am not trying to convince the OP that she should be happy in WI, but I think her personal misery is causing her to paint a very distorted portrait of Wisconsin and its people.
I believe the OP is from California. My husband received a job offer from a Silicon Valley company in 2001--the same time he received his job offer from a Dallas area company. The idea of living in CA was very appealing--wonderful cities, beautiful national parks, the ocean, etc. Then I looked at the cost of housing. A three bedroom ranch home in not the best school district around San Jose was over 700,000 dollars. In general, the public schools in CA are not too great because of prop 13. Despite making more than 100 grand a year, I knew we would be among the working poor if we lived in CA. The cost of living in WI is much below the West or East Coasts.
It's the overall cost...and there is no way to know how miserable "winters" can be and how long they can last (we were taught 3 months is a season - that is not true in WI) until you live somewhere. I've done winters in Boise with no problems as well as winters in IL. WI is MUCH different than other north or midwest places - maybe not MN or MI, but it's worth pointing out. My post is for those NOT from the northern midwest.
And yes, sex offenses in Madison consist mainly of crimes against children - please do that figures comp in your free time, fryguy! I'd be interested in the breakdown....while you're at it, compare to Eugene OR or Boise ID. The sex offenders that are just under 18 are not listed but are PLENTIFUL in Madison...like I said, call the victim advocacy orgs and you will be shocked by their case load. I'll take gang shootings in downtown LA anyday over my kids being raped by seemingly harmless teenage babysitters!!! Lots of child porn arrests here too on the news...not surprising.
I'd also take $700k house in San Jose with $150/mo utilities year round and low insurance, over $350k house with $400/mo utilities and high insurance in Madison like I said, to each his own - this is my opinion and outlook. And no, I am not depressed LOL ~ not even close, a bit annoyed, but no where near sad. I'm optimistic about leaving soon...and hope my experiences and comments help others think about things to consider!
Where can you live under $65k? Well, we were making it on grad student salary in Irvine, CA for under $30k annual....if you are wise with money, you can make it just about anywhere without assistance on very low income --- that is, if you have control over the spending (which you don't with very high taxes and very long subzero winters). Madison leaves VERY little room for play and control in spending.
It's the overall cost...and there is no way to know how miserable "winters" can be and how long they can last (we were taught 3 months is a season - that is not true in WI) until you live somewhere. I've done winters in Boise with no problems as well as winters in IL. WI is MUCH different than other north or midwest places - maybe not MN or MI, but it's worth pointing out. My post is for those NOT from the northern midwest.
And yes, sex offenses in Madison consist mainly of crimes against children - please do that figures comp in your free time, fryguy! I'd be interested in the breakdown....while you're at it, compare to Eugene OR or Boise ID. The sex offenders that are just under 18 are not listed but are PLENTIFUL in Madison...like I said, call the victim advocacy orgs and you will be shocked by their case load. I'll take gang shootings in downtown LA anyday over my kids being raped by seemingly harmless teenage babysitters!!! Lots of child porn arrests here too on the news...not surprising.
I'd also take $700k house in San Jose with $150/mo utilities year round and low insurance, over $350k house with $400/mo utilities and high insurance in Madison like I said, to each his own - this is my opinion and outlook. And no, I am not depressed LOL ~ not even close, a bit annoyed, but no where near sad. I'm optimistic about leaving soon...and hope my experiences and comments help others think about things to consider!
Where can you live under $65k? Well, we were making it on grad student salary in Irvine, CA for under $30k annual....if you are wise with money, you can make it just about anywhere without assistance on very low income --- that is, if you have control over the spending (which you don't with very high taxes and very long subzero winters). Madison leaves VERY little room for play and control in spending.
What kind of house can you buy in Irvine, CA with a $30K salary?
My spouse and I moved from Madison in March because the winters were to much trouble for a retired couple especially with the heavy snowfalls the past two years.
Like most communities in the US, the developers desire for growth, destroys the livability of Madison. Our house was in a very walkable location (near Hilldale), larger than average in both square footage and lot. Downtown Madison was getting too inconvenient to visit with traffic congestion and high parking fees.
Real estate taxes were very high and my move has given us a larger house with $1,000 less property tax on a larger house. The politicians give away of tax money to various corporations and land developers will only make matters worse.
I don't think anyone here has attacked the OP, it's just that she is presenting issues that she should have known about before hand. Anyone from Madison could have easily (and by performing a search, should would have known) that our winters are in fact brutal...and excessively cloudy. People here are sick of it by March and still have to deal with cloudy, cool and dreary Aprils...and not to mention, the cold sets in by November...so no one here claims we only have a 3 month winter...we wish!
Also, if people have an issue about being at this extreme northern latitude and lack of Vitamin D, wouldn't they look elsewhere from the get go??? Well, like I said, these complaints are genuine, but to be shocked by them like they are the hidden side of Madison just seems a little disingenous when people on here and locally readily share this information and it would be obvious after a winter visit.
Also, and this is something that maybe the OP didn't know....but locals are pretty hardy. You have to be if you are from here. You will be a prisoner in your own home if you let cloudiness or wind or cold keep you inside for months of the year. Most locals, even if they dislike the weather, force themselves out to avoid getting sick, heavy, etc. I know I see people jogging, biking and running even on the coldest subzero days. The city certainly doesn't stop when it gets nasty...and many seem to even enjoy it.
I don't get the obsession with sex offenders, they are everywhere. And even if there are more or less in Madison on paper, they aren't all "registered." In other words, those are just the convicted ones. So be careful and use common sense wherever you live...
Taxes here are high. Housing costs are high. Utilities are high and energy usage is also high. None of this is secret either...so once again, the OP has a right to vent about this, but none of this is shocking or new unless someone turned a blind eye to the facts before picking up and moving cross country.
Another issue I have is this. Madison is far from perfect, but to be so unhappy here when there are so many dangerous or truely horrible places to live....shows that happiness and misery are a choice. It is mind over matter. If you choose to be depressed or homebound or to gain weight, that is a personal issue, but it isn't a universal truth. Many people that live here don't like it and would be better suited elsewhere, but living here in the meantime isn't a like living in Guantanamo.
When I was growing up, I remember getting bundled up and going outside to play in the snow. There was no indoor recreation for a fee at that time. Well, other than going to McDonald's to play, and even then, their playground was outdoors!!! Now, it's indoors...that's a good escape...free...just buy the kids some carrot stickes and juice and that's pretty cheap recreation. Also, the cold is during the school year, so I was busy with classes during the day, and I was on the basketball team so there was practice after school as well. Then I went home and did homework. I guess I was free on the weekends and for that I went to the movies, went out with friends...basically normal kid and teen stuff as if I lived anywhere else. Life went on despite minimal sunny days and numerous sub zero weeks on end. It sucked, but that was just the background, not the main theme.You can adapt if you make the concious choice to do so.
Anyone can be happy or angry in Madison...if you enjoy cold weather and outdoor cold weather activities, you will like it here. If you are on a tight budget and need a lot of sunny days and sunny winter weather, don't even think about it. People here are somewhat isolated and quirky...but not lazy or mean in general. Standoffish perhaps, but overall, decent. No impediments to actually forging friendships if you so desire...you just may have to adapt to a different personality type compared to larger cities or places furthur south.
I just don't want this thread to skew Madison into being a total depressing hole...it really is what YOU make of it. If you come here expecting the city to jump through hoops for you, you will be disappointed. If you think this is a magical city, you will be let down. It is just a slow paced, upper midwest city with a high standard of living and correspondingly high cost of living. Nothing more, nothing less.
Yes, Chelito, you bring back some childhood memories. My mother didn't take me to indoor gyms. We used to roller skate in the basement. My neighborhood friends came over in the winter and we played together. I played with my toys with my sister. I used to listen to records on my record player. I am talking about when I was very little, so I could give the OP some ideas. My mother had a coffee group every Tuesday, so we would play with the other kids every week there. I remember spending hours outside building snowforts and taking my sled to the big hill by the school and sledding. We ice skated on the frozen pond.
It's hotter than Hades here in Texas. No way could I stand sitting outside for three months of the year. I enrolled my kids in a day camp with a pool where they learned to swim at an early age. They went for six weeks in the mornings. I was free to run my errands, and they had fun. Meanwhile, they made friends, and I invited those children over for playdates and vice versa. To save money the parents used to take each other's kids on a Saturday night, so we wouldn't have to pay baby sitters.
I once visited my parents for two months during a Wisconsin winter when my children were babies and toddlers. I do remember the whole bundling up thing was very annoying--especially during the potty training years. I took my kids to free neighborhood library programming in Watertown, WI--there sure was no children's museum there. I also took my kids to twice a week music lessons--Kindermusik, but they were very inexpensive. I really don't understand why Wisconsin is more expensive for child entertainment than other places.
In Plano, TX in 2002, I had to pay 6000 a year for a daily preschool which met only in the mornings. How much is a church preschool in WI?
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like I said, to each his own - this is my opinion and outlook. And no, I am not depressed LOL ~ not even close, a bit annoyed, but no where near sad. I'm optimistic about leaving soon...and hope my experiences and comments help others think about things to consider!
