Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Do you think the goal of the Tal law is to help with manpower shortfalls in the IDF, or is the main goal to integrate chareidim into mainstream society?
If you chose manpower shortfalls, do you find it interesting that the entire discussion is being initiated and carried out publicly by politicians, and not the military?
If you chose integration, do you think Israel benefits by having religious Jews "integrate" into secular society with less Torah learning and the occasional abandonment or lessening of Torah values?
Do you think the goal of the Tal law is to help with manpower shortfalls in the IDF, or is the main goal to integrate chareidim into mainstream society?
If you chose manpower shortfalls, do you find it interesting that the entire discussion is being initiated and carried out publicly by politicians, and not the military?
If you chose integration, do you think Israel benefits by having religious Jews "integrate" into secular society with less Torah learning and the occasional abandonment or lessening of Torah values?
60,000 who take money from the government, do not work or even do national service.
The government cannot afford to continue to support these people. They need to be educated in a way that allows them to be employed and be self supportive.
The Tal Law will end Aug. 1, that has been the ruling from the supreme court.
So it is a given that in some way the subsidies and avoidance of service will end.
They will have a choice of Idf or national service.
The reality is they need to be integrated into Israeli society, they need to serve their country as citizens of Israel.
One can study Torah and work, serve in national service or the Idf.
Many of our sages worked and studied Torah. If they could do it the haridim can too.
Can I fairly summarize you to say that both of my scenarios apply, plus there's a morality or fairness component, too?
If the politicians re-labled Torah study as national service, would that make any difference?
No........ And an end to subsidies needs to happen too.
The state can no longer afford to support 60,000+ people who reproduce and continue to grow and take.
Israel will cease to exist if this scenario continues.
Again many of our sages studied, produced great works and supported themselves with employment. Rambam is an example of one who gave great works and he worked to support himself when his brother drowned.
He not only supported his family, he supported his brothers family.
Originally Posted by theflipflop Do you think the goal of the Tal law is to help with manpower shortfalls in the IDF, or is the main goal to integrate chareidim into mainstream society?
Neither. They should be like every other Israeli citizen as they near their 18th birthday, enlist in the IDF. Once the service time is over then they can go onto higher education just like everyone else.
Let's keep this civil if we can. Please stop the "on the take" comments, as those are terribly offensive, when millions of Israelis would describe Limud haTorah as giving, not taking.
I've been monitoring the frum websites this week on this subject, and there's really quite a diversity of opinions on how this should play out. Some say it's a government conspiracy to destroy Torah values and rip the yarmulkes off of those precious Jewish heads. Others say that frum Jews should find a way to both learn how to read a gamara, as well as how to shoot an uzi. As a nation, Israel is so lowly a nation (by government sponsored toiva, chillul shabbos, etc) that they do not merit the protection of HaKadosh BaruchHu, and therefore Israelis must use guns, not tefilla, to protect themselves.
I find it interesting that the Israeli generals are not asking for the Torah scholars to join the IDF - it's only the chilonim politicians. Of course they are thinking about what a pain in the rear it's going to be to be forced to serve kosher food, have set times for tefilla, allow for the mikva, and so on...
I wonder if those who are so interested in the "integration" of the chareidim into frei culture are going to be surprised when the opposite occurs, and the secular godless masses in Israel end up being exposed to these newly inducted IDF Torah scholars, who in turn will inspire T'shuvah, thereby increasing the madrega of the average Israeli.
Hashem has a plan for all, and if in the end Hashem's decision is that yeshiva bochurim should take time out of their Torah studies to join the IDF and learn how to kill Arabs, then that's what for the best. And it's time to start thinking about all the kiruv opportunities there will be in the IDF and how much Israel stands to benefit.
Let's keep this civil if we can. Please stop the "on the take" comments, as those are terribly offensive, when millions of Israelis would describe Limud haTorah as giving, not taking.
I've been monitoring the frum websites this week on this subject, and there's really quite a diversity of opinions on how this should play out. Some say it's a government conspiracy to destroy Torah values and rip the yarmulkes off of those precious Jewish heads. Others say that frum Jews should find a way to both learn how to read a gamara, as well as how to shoot an uzi. As a nation, Israel is so lowly a nation (by government sponsored toiva, chillul shabbos, etc) that they do not merit the protection of HaKadosh BaruchHu, and therefore Israelis must use guns, not tefilla, to protect themselves.
I find it interesting that the Israeli generals are not asking for the Torah scholars to join the IDF - it's only the chilonim politicians. Of course they are thinking about what a pain in the rear it's going to be to be forced to serve kosher food, have set times for tefilla, allow for the mikva, and so on...
I wonder if those who are so interested in the "integration" of the chareidim into frei culture are going to be surprised when the opposite occurs, and the secular godless masses in Israel end up being exposed to these newly inducted IDF Torah scholars, who in turn will inspire T'shuvah, thereby increasing the madrega of the average Israeli.
Hashem has a plan for all, and if in the end Hashem's decision is that yeshiva bochurim should take time out of their Torah studies to join the IDF and learn how to kill Arabs, then that's what for the best. And it's time to start thinking about all the kiruv opportunities there will be in the IDF and how much Israel stands to benefit.
It is quite civil......
The haridim who are given subsidies, and take/accept them.
This is not an uncivil thing to say, it is the truth.
Again what needs to happen is at 18 all Israeli citizens need to do time in the Idf and after their time is done they can study all they want.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
