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None of what I wrote (or think) is a slam against Virginia Beach.
But how do you market it to make it any different than dozens of other sunbelt cities?
The problem of “no one knows what Hampton Roads is” has been identified. What’s unique about Virginia Beach to make it memorable? It may be the best place in Tidewater to live (that’s what I personally think) but how does that resonate with a person in Omaha? Scenes and landmarks from Norfolk would go into the marketing materials. It’s the city with the most sense of place. Sense of place is very important when trying to brand a region, don’t ya think?
So yes. Call the area Virginia Beach to keep it simple. Forget that the area is comprised of multiple cities (that’s not very unique anyway). In my 49 years I’ve never told anyone I was from Tidewater or Hampton Roads. I’ve always said the “Norfolk/ Virginia Beach area”. People understand that.
Well, the largest problem here is lack of corroboration between VB and Nfk. To me, that's what the area has to market to increase visibility, and it will work, but they have to be marketed as a joint city:
•market the two downtowns that are only ~7.5 miles from each other, border to border, instead of the status quo of both cities currently marketing their own downtowns, with emphasis on the strengths of both (the historic nature of DT Nfk on the water; a full service grocery and growing walkability in Town Center; dining, malls, and nightlife options in both), while also playing up the combined strengths;
•market the many different beaches between the two---->Ocean View, Willoughby (Norfolk), Chic's Beach, Sandbridge (Virginia Beach);
•market the retail districts within both---->21st/Colley area, Wards Corner, Little Creek (Norfolk), Lynnhaven, Landstown, Red Mill (Virginia Beach);
•market the fact that there's a light rail line in Norfolk even though it goes nowhere interesting lol;
•market the premier parks---->Town Point Park (Norfolk), Trashmore, First Landing (Virginia Beach);
•market the hell out of the urban square in Norfolk (Tidewater to the Elizabeth, Lafayette to the Elizabeth), which is truly unique to the area for the level of urbanity found there; also market Oceanfront as being a real urban neighborhood that is more than a tourist trap,
•market the education and health infrastructure that is largely HQ'ed in Nfk but also highlight the branch locations in VB, as well as the education options in VB;
•start marketing actual VB neighborhoods that provide commercial and residential advantages like Thalia, Pembroke, Oceanfront, Hilltop, Landstown, Red Mill, Salem, Kempsville, Plaza, Bow Creek/Lynnhaven, etc. There is almost zero focus on VB neighborhoods;
•artistic districts both have a ton of room to grow but market both Neon and Vibe areas;
•market the various museums and venues in both---->Virginia Zoo, Norfolk Botanical Gardens, The Scope, Chrysler, Nauticus, Tides baseball, VB City soccer, Norva, VSC (Nfk); Ocean Breeze, Virginia Aquarium, Virginia Museum of Contemporary Art, Veterans United Amphitheater, Sandler Center, Z Center (Virginia Beach);
VB City FC is HQ'ed in VB but plays in Nfk...
Market all of these things, just stop marketing them singularly in competition with each other. I'm not and never have advocated for marketing VB by itself. We're stronger united than apart, clearly. All I said was call the area VB if you favor a name change, and gave examples of why that makes more sense than calling the area Nfk. But I'd market them as twin cities, in the vein of Minneapolis/St Paul, or Tampa/St Pete...
Quote:
Originally Posted by spencer114
BTW, I worked in Virginia Beach and Chesapeake for a year, about 5 years ago. I stayed in hotel rooms 4 nights a week so it didn’t feel like living there, but I did seek food and entertainment in the evenings. I have a better idea of what the region can offer than most out-of-towners.
I just spent this last weekend at a hotel in the Greenbrier area (view of the Dollar Tree headquarters from my hotel room). I went into Norfolk (Ghent and the Freemason district) for all my meals. Went to a concert in Virginia Beach.
The plan is to turn that Greenbrier area into a downtown district too, have you heard about that?
It worked and is working in VB, we'll see how this plays out. I'm optimistic because the area is already decentralized, and examples within this thread from years ago mentioned following the example of LA and how it used its decentralization as a success. Adding a "downtown" district to Chesapeake only adds to what is already here in DT Nfk, Town Center, and Oceanfront...
VB's best concentration of local flavor is around Town Center and Oceanfront...
I drove past that new town center development. It’s much further along than I was expecting. It’s going to be a very good addition to an already attractive office park.
Don’t forget the Peninsula. City Center, Port Warwick and the thing in Hampton are all good examples of that type of new urbanism (Port Warwick is the best in the entire area, IMO). Then there’s the gems that are old town Hampton and Portsmouth (and downtown Newport News which even though is quite decimated at the moment is the second most “downtown” in HR, and I’d follow it with Suffolk which gets no love but is a very attractive, Central Virginia-looking city).
But calling it all one, specific thing would help, IMO . Boston isn’t called the Charles River Cities. It’s called Boston, even though it’s comprised of much bigger and more noteworthy independent cities. Same with L.A.
I drove past that new town center development. It’s much further along than I was expecting. It’s going to be a very good addition to an already attractive office park.
Don’t forget the Peninsula. City Center, Port Warwick and the thing in Hampton are all good examples of that type of new urbanism (Port Warwick is the best in the entire area, IMO). Then there’s the gems that are old town Hampton and Portsmouth (and downtown Newport News which even though is quite decimated at the moment is the second most “downtown” in HR, and I’d follow it with Suffolk which gets no love but is a very attractive, Central Virginia-looking city).
But calling it all one, specific thing would help, IMO . Boston isn’t called the Charles River Cities. It’s called Boston, even though it’s comprised of much bigger and more noteworthy independent cities. Same with L.A.
DT NPN is extremely decimated and desolate. Downtown Hampton is better, and I find DT Portsmouth to be really overrated. We've dined there, taken our daughter to the children's museum (which was pretty fun), and done the ferry across the river between Nfk and Portsmouth. Its serviceable....but I really don't get the excitement about DT Portsmouth...
DTVB is the #2 downtown in the area by a pretty wide margin. The only thing resembling an office park is the Convergence area at the corner of Constitution and Bonney and the loop behind Princess Anne High where the health department is. The rest of it is typical high rise residential, mixed uses, and commercial structures found in downtowns nationwide, as well as shopping plazas typically reserved for traditionally suburban areas...
I do agree there are other interesting areas of NPN and Hampton...
I have to disagree with the VB town center opinion. I’d rank it 6th in the metro.
It in no way functions as a downtown. It’s nice and has potential (40 years out it may be something) but it misses the urban and civic mark in pretty much every way. A few of the buildings have a downtown quality/aesthetic but it looks and feels like any new urbanism development anywhere in the world. It’s only slightly better than City Center in NN (because it looks great from the highway).
I have to disagree with the VB town center opinion. I’d rank it 6th in the metro.
It in no way functions as a downtown. It’s nice and has potential (40 years out it may be something) but it misses the urban and civic mark in pretty much every way. A few of the buildings have a downtown quality/aesthetic but it looks and feels like any new urbanism development anywhere in the world. It’s only slightly better than City Center in NN (because it looks great from the highway).
It is new urbanist but it does function as a downtown. First of all, its centrally located. It doesn't have the civic and government structures that traditional downtowns have because it's only 16 years old, and the civic activity in VB has long been concentrated out in Princess Anne. Old customs die hard, there is often talk about relocating city services to Town Center. It'll happen at some point...
But the main reason it functions as a downtown is because it is now the "business" center of VB----->central "business" district. This is part of what I mean when I say I wouldn't (and didn't) pick up on this until I lived here. The convention center is at the Oceanfront, but ask the locals around here, the business gravity is in Town Center and continuing to bloom there at an exceptional rate. Those high rises and buildings in Town Center, are the offices of many firms and organizations, including some that moved into Tidewater and aren't native to VA...
I'm not denying that it is new urbanism. I just wanna highlight that perception doesn't equate to reality here, VB is unique from the standpoint that it has outgrown it's original character and matured into a real city. It is largely suburban, but its nobody's suburb, and I never heard a single Norfolkian regard it as such in present day. It's one thing to talk about VB's history and its origins, but it has some nodes of urbanity that parallel to that vast majority of Norfolk outside of Norfolk's 6.7-sq mile urban core (and even some places within it). Downtown Norfolk certainly isn't excluded from New Urbanist architecture (check out Monticello Ave right thru downtown and Boush St off the top of my head), and this is part of what differentiates Nfk from Rich and unifies Nfk and VB....
Among other things, because there are New Urbanist concepts elsewhere in Norfolk. They put an outlet center in the city, if that doesn't define "suburban", I dont know what does lmao. But that's the character of the region bro, HR is an overwhelming suburban region by the ocean, with pockets of urbanity here and there...
I maintain DT Portsmouth is underwhelming and can't come up with any acceptable reason to put DT NPN above any downtown in the area hahaha...
My reasoning for that is because it is the civic center of Newport News. It spawned suburban Newport News (the main streets originate in downtown). VB Town Center functions just as City Center in NN does. Both areas were already the employment centers of their cities. Both are mall-like with fake streets that don’t don’t connect in any meaningful way to the rest of the city. Town center doesn’t have the library, the post office, the courts, the social services office, the parks etc that a real downtown has. At best VA Beach Town Center will be like Reston Town Center (which is 30 some years old and isn’t even close to being a downtown).
Hampton, Suffolk, NN, Norfolk and Portsmouth downtowns all function and look like one. VB is downtown buildings built in the parking lot of a TJ Max.
That said, it’s a nice development. It wouldn’t take much to change that. Move the city services there. Make Virginia Beach Blvd two one-way streets (use the current west bound lanes as new city blocks (build a new City Hall there) then put new west bound lanes where the strip mall parking lots are now. Then build north of that too. Then the most major road in the area is actually grounded in downtown.
My reasoning for that is because it is the civic center of Newport News. It spawned suburban Newport News (the main streets originate in downtown). VB Town Center functions just as City Center in NN does. Both areas were already the employment centers of their cities. Both are mall-like with fake streets that don’t don’t connect in any meaningful way to the rest of the city. Town center doesn’t have the library, the post office, the courts, the social services office, the parks etc that a real downtown has. At best VA Beach Town Center will be like Reston Town Center (which is 30 some years old and isn’t even close to being a downtown).
Hampton, Suffolk, NN, Norfolk and Portsmouth downtowns all function and look like one. VB is downtown buildings built in the parking lot of a TJ Max.
That said, it’s a nice development. It wouldn’t take much to change that. Move the city services there. Make Virginia Beach Blvd two one-way streets (use the current west bound lanes as new city blocks (build a new City Hall there) then put new west bound lanes where the strip mall parking lots are now. Then build north of that too. Then the most major road in the area is actually grounded in downtown.
Agree with you that the mapping and landscaping of roadways needs to change. I believe it will, the city has been very progressive in building Town Center to where it is now from nothing just 16 years ago. They'll get around to reimagining the street grids...
You're wrong about everything else, except the fact that most city services aren't located downtown. I get the feeling that "Town Center" to you is only the few blocks where the mid and high rises are, when in actuality, local jargon of what is Town Center is about a ~1.75-sq mile area. They are building and developing, pretty steadily at that, north, west, and south of the formation you're mistakingly thinking is the entirety of Downtown Virginia Beach. And here are examples of what is actually in what is commonly considered Town Center by the people who actually live in VB:
Full service grocers (which is more than DT Nfk can say):
Library is technically in Thalia, but as I've explained in previous threads you may have seen, this is an area becoming synonymous with Town Center, particularly the south side of Thalia (along Bonney Rd)...
This isn't walkable from downtown because its cut off by 264, but is one of the premier recreational parks in the entire region...
When they reformat the street designs, it will link everything together more cohesively. I think we all understand that Town Center isn't anywhere close to being fully developed, but it offers a variety of amenities within its expanding footprint that subjecting it to being only a fake mall-like atmosphere isn't really fair to it!
I definitely get the potential but in 2019, it’s the 6th most “downtown” in the area.
If City Center in NN gets to claim all of Oyster Point (I hope it does) and the new tech center development then it too is on par with Town Center.
I definitely get the potential but in 2019, it’s the 6th most “downtown” in the area.
If City Center in NN gets to claim all of Oyster Point (I hope it does) and the new tech center development then it too is on par with Town Center.
VA Beach town center has more potential to grow. What it really needs is Las Vegas style bridges/escallops to cross Va Beach Blvd and Independence Blvd. Do that then we are talking about something that could be awesome. You still can't walk from Wegmans to Shake Shack easily because of that major intersection.
Norfolk will eventually return to that level of density, eventually building higher than before. Cities are always in a constant state of change anyway.
Norfolk is returning to that density level. And by this time now has almost exceeded what they had before in the downtown area. If you ask almost anyone here they will say that yes Virginia Beach is bigger but with Norfolk's downtown it makes Norfolk the central city around here. Norfolk is growing at a rate that I love. This city has potential and I hope it reaches its well deserved minor/major city status.
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