Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
One example of this thinking is Sidney Lanier, the poet. His name got removed from a school in Texas because he spent a couple years as a private in the Confederate Navy, most of which was in a Northern prison camp, from which he got the TB which eventually killed him.
The school being named after him had nothing to do with his insignificant career as a soldier.
This thinking would mean nothing could be named after almost anyone from the South who lived from 1861-1865. In other words, wiping out just about anyone born from 1800 on.
No human being is a saint or always makes the best decisions. MLK cheated on his wife and was a communist during the cold war. The other things he did outweighed the negative.
Streets, so what? If the residents want a new name, fine. But wholesale removing and changing of everything is just mindless. Those who advocate that should think about how this generation will be viewed in the future, and, how some of our behavior would have been viewed in the past. Our vulgarity, pornography, out of wedlock births with kids abandoned by the fathers and lack of civility would have been astounding to people in the past.
I think we can agree that all things celebrating the Confederacy in broad brushstrokes should be erased or recontextualized like Stone Mountain, but schools, lakes, streets, mascots, etc. named after specific people can be judged on a case-by-case basis by the communities that have to live with it. Funny thing about that school in Texas is that it's still named Lanier because they changed it to the name of a Houston mayor, Bob Lanier, who had died a couple of years before. When I lived in Orlando, there was a middle school named after Robert E. Lee with a rebel mascot that had a student population more than 70 percent African American. That obviously made no sense and was probably confusing to the kids, but it wasn't until last year that the name was changed from the name it was given in 1956 as a protest to Brown v. Board.
Last edited by cparker73; 08-08-2018 at 05:57 PM..
I see it like this. Why honor a Confederate or anything that symbolizes the Confederate cause, especially if you understand what the Confederate cause is about?
I think that public streets, parks, schools, lakes, etc. should not be named for the purpose of honoring the confederacy—they are intended to be used by the public, so they are just wrong.. I think what should be done with statues probably require a little bit more of a more nuanced discussion—I do think that the most super-conspicuous ones should be moved to less conspicuous places, at a minimum. I think that the Stone Mountain carving is the most concrete example (in the literal sense) of segregationist history, and should be presented as such—The park should be honest about teaching/presenting the racist and segregationist history behind the construction of the carving—maybe replacing the flags that surround the lawn in front of the mountain with things that put the carving in perspective—maybe markers that describe the racist-segregationist- or Civil Rights events that “coincided” with different phases of the funding/construction of the carving. The Carving should not be destroyed, but it should lose all of the pageantry and honor associated with it.
I think that public streets, parks, schools, lakes, etc. should not be named for the purpose of honoring the confederacy—they are intended to be used by the public, so they are just wrong.. I think what should be done with statues probably require a little bit more of a more nuanced discussion—I do think that the most super-conspicuous ones should be moved to less conspicuous places, at a minimum. I think that the Stone Mountain carving is the most concrete example (in the literal sense) of segregationist history, and should be presented as such—The park should be honest about teaching/presenting the racist and segregationist history behind the construction of the carving—maybe replacing the flags that surround the lawn in front of the mountain with things that put the carving in perspective—maybe markers that describe the racist-segregationist- or Civil Rights events that “coincided” with different phases of the funding/construction of the carving. The Carving should not be destroyed, but it should lose all of the pageantry and honor associated with it.
There's a part of me that struggles with the idea of sandblasting the carving because of positive associations I had with going there when I was a kid and being enamored with the laser show, but the fact that it's the largest bas relief sculpture in the world means there's no way to downplay the pageantry associated with that. I guess at the very least, the part of the laser show where the carving is traced and comes to life should be changed to not elicit all the whoops and rebel yells you hear during that segment.
I know there was a proposal to put a bell on top of the mountain in reference to MLK's I Have a Dream speech, and I was skeptical about that, but I think that would be a wonderful addition to bring the history of the site full circle now that areas around Stone Mountain are some of the most diverse parts of this diverse metro.
Well this wasn't "honoring" the confederacy. It was just practical. There was at one point a Confederate old soldiers home on Confederate Avenue, thereby giving it the name. It was named just like all those "Mill" streets here, named after a mill that existed at one point in time at the end of the road.
If the residents want it changed, change it.
If a name of a street or place is name after something else that is meant honor or for the CSA it's the same thing, It's continuing that honor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2
Horrible post.
One example of this thinking is Sidney Lanier, the poet. His name got removed from a school in Texas because he spent a couple years as a private in the Confederate Navy, most of which was in a Northern prison camp, from which he got the TB which eventually killed him.
The school being named after him had nothing to do with his insignificant career as a soldier.
This thinking would mean nothing could be named after almost anyone from the South who lived from 1861-1865. In other words, wiping out just about anyone born from 1800 on.
No human being is a saint or always makes the best decisions. MLK cheated on his wife and was a communist during the cold war. The other things he did outweighed the negative.
Streets, so what? If the residents want a new name, fine. But wholesale removing and changing of everything is just mindless. Those who advocate that should think about how this generation will be viewed in the future, and, how some of our behavior would have been viewed in the past. Our vulgarity, pornography, out of wedlock births with kids abandoned by the fathers and lack of civility would have been astounding to people in the past.
Your trying to make it seem like People just are nit picking the good and bad in people, there's a difference from have done wrong from actually honoring the wrong itself.
MLK streets aren't name after him for cheating on his wife, That's not his claim to fame which is being honor.... there name after the Marches, jailing, speeches and he gave.
That's a huge difference with most of these CSA stuff, Sidney Lanier is more known for being a poet. Not to horror what he did wrong as CSA solider. How ever most of the CSA monuments are to directly honor the CSA causes and actions. And they was largely advocate, built or even funded by the United Daughters of the Confederacy. It gets no clearer what they was trying honor.
Furthermore these monuments have always been controversial, in fact After slavery a lot of southern states like GA, SC, AL, MS and LA were 50-40% black for a few decades. Which means if wasn't for Jim crow laws marginalizing blacks, black would had the numbers to oppose these place names and monuments from the started. So not only are these symbols of Jim Crow, but they was built with a convenience of Jim Crow itself. Jim Crow enable them to exist.
I think we can agree that all things celebrating the Confederacy in broad brushstrokes should be erased or recontextualized like Stone Mountain, but schools, lakes, streets, mascots, etc. named after specific people can be judged on a case-by-case basis by the communities that have to live with it. Funny thing about that school in Texas is that it's still named Lanier because they changed it to the name of a Houston mayor, Bob Lanier, who had died a couple of years before. When I lived in Orlando, there was a middle school named after Robert E. Lee with a rebel mascot that had a student population more than 70 percent African American. That obviously made no sense and was probably confusing to the kids, but it wasn't until last year that the name was changed from the name it was given in 1956 as a protest to Brown v. Board.
There are cases where it REALLY makes sense to change the name. If that Orlando school's name was changed in 1956, it needs to be changed. Its hard to justify anything outside Mississippi named after Jefferson Davis who was widely reviled in the South as its president. That monument in New Orleans honoring a white riot against reconstruction rule needed to be moved. But when you start considering moving monuments in cemeteries as Atlanta has discussed, its getting ridiculous. And you get the slippery slope. Thomas Jefferson was a slave holder. The Democratic party already ended its Jefferson-Jackson dinner.
There's a part of me that struggles with the idea of sandblasting the carving because of positive associations I had with going there when I was a kid and being enamored with the laser show, but the fact that it's the largest bas relief sculpture in the world means there's no way to downplay the pageantry associated with that. I guess at the very least, the part of the laser show where the carving is traced and comes to life should be changed to not elicit all the whoops and rebel yells you hear during that segment.
I know there was a proposal to put a bell on top of the mountain in reference to MLK's I Have a Dream speech, and I was skeptical about that, but I think that would be a wonderful addition to bring the history of the site full circle now that areas around Stone Mountain are some of the most diverse parts of this diverse metro.
It needs to be put in context, but sandblasting it is just turning us into the Taliban.
The Confederate stuff should have been wiped clean a long time ago. Confederates should have never been given any accolades or tributes in the first place. Of course, when you look at when they were erected, you can understand why. So much animosity towards the North, not to mention the Jim Crow social climate of the South during the years between 1876 and 1965.
They (the Confederates) should be remembered as those who fought for the Confederate cause. The Confederate cause should be remembered as a cause so rooted in keeping slavery that there was a willingness to wage war for it. Anyone who doubts that the desire to keep slavery played a major role needs to read the Articles of Secession, the Cornerstone Speech, the words of William Tappan Thompson(founder of the Savannah Morning News) and the Confederate Constitution.
It's really interesting when you compare how the South treats issues relating to the the Confederacy and slavery versus how Germany treats Nazis and the Holocaust.
If a name of a street or place is name after something else that is meant honor or for the CSA it's the same thing, It's continuing that honor.
Your trying to make it seem like People just are nit picking the good and bad in people, there's a difference from have done wrong from actually honoring the wrong itself.
MLK streets aren't name after him for cheating on his wife, That's not his claim to fame which is being honor.... there name after the Marches, jailing, speeches and he gave.
That's a huge difference with most of these CSA stuff, Sidney Lanier is more known for being a poet. Not to horror what he did wrong as CSA solider. How ever most of the CSA monuments are to directly honor the CSA causes and actions. And they was largely advocate, built or even funded by the United Daughters of the Confederacy. It gets no clearer what they was trying honor.
Furthermore these monuments have always been controversial, in fact After slavery a lot of southern states like GA, SC, AL, MS and LA were 50-40% black for a few decades. Which means if wasn't for Jim crow laws marginalizing blacks, black would had the numbers to oppose these place names and monuments from the started. So not only are these symbols of Jim Crow, but they was built with a convenience of Jim Crow itself. Jim Crow enable them to exist.
There are categories. Streets often change names.
If you start to change lake and city names that's a bigger step.
Some of the monuments were put in place to let Blacks know their place. But others were simply to honor lost relatives. Lee was often used as a symbol of the southern foot soldiers. The US Army adopted a policy of naming their forts after both Union and Confederate generals to bring the nation back together. There is a Ft. McPherson. And a Ft. Bragg. A Ft. Meade. And a Ft. Hood. And numerous others. With someplace like Stone Mountain, you can recognize Southerners who helped the Union, not erase the memory of the vast majority who didn't. You can recognize the 40-60% slave populations that helped build LA, MS, AL, GA and SC. I don't think its widely known just how significant those slave populations were.
It's really interesting when you compare how the South treats issues relating to the the Confederacy and slavery versus how Germany treats Nazis and the Holocaust.
To me it is not interesting. My ancestors were among those who were enslaved, followed by subjugation under Jim Crow. The Confederate flag and tributes to Confederate soldiers need to be looked at the same way as Germany has looked at the Nazis and the Holocaust. When you recognize that what they are about is wrong, you don't pay tribute to them. You remember them, but you don't honor them. You don't hold them in high esteem.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
