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Well, let's see: Nevada's DOT was able to complete their portion of I11 in Clark County, while ADOT sits on their hands with no finalized blueprints. There is laziness, but not on Nevada's part!
I think ADOT's priorities are the Phoenix Metroplex, followed by the Tucson Metroplex, then all the other population centers throughout the state.
I feel your dissatisfaction, but comparing ADOT's I-11 plans to NDOT's I-11 portion in Clark County is sort of ridiculous and an unfair comparison. One, Vegas is practically right on the AZ/NV border, and the Boulder City Bypass project to NDOT is basically like the South Mountain Freeway project to ADOT in "project size-wise".
Second, in Clark County they already had I-515 and US-95 as a limited access freeways, so once they finished the Boulder City bypass, of course I-11 was almost done in Clark County!
Third, if you just want to talk about the I-11 segment between Las Vegas and Phoenix, Nevada has what 3%, while Arizona has 97% of that project, again it's like comparing apples and pineapples.
Every state has different priorities, for NDOT, the Las Vegas Metroplex is their #1 priority followed by the Reno-Carson City Metroplex, so it makes sense they wanted to finish that part of I-11, which is tiny compared to what ADOT has to do for I-11.
You being a life long Arizonan, can easily see over the last 30+ years, what ADOT has done in upgrading US-93 between the Hoover Dam and Phoenix. Could they have done more over that time, sure, could they have also done less, absolutely.
ADOT has plans for a Beale St. Bypass (Kingman) and a Wickenburg Bypass, so it's not like they are totally obvious to the fact those things need to get done, it's just not a priority right now!
I think ADOT's priorities are the Phoenix Metroplex, followed by the Tucson Metroplex, then all the other population centers throughout the state.
I feel your dissatisfaction, but comparing ADOT's I-11 plans to NDOT's I-11 portion in Clark County is sort of ridiculous and an unfair comparison. One, Vegas is practically right on the AZ/NV border, and the Boulder City Bypass project to NDOT is basically like the South Mountain Freeway project to ADOT in "project size-wise".
The big difference is: The I11 section in southern Nevada was able to be planned & completed in a rather short amount of time. It took ADOT more than 30 years from the planning stage of the South Mountain Freeway to the actual construction stage. A large reason for this was mis management of funds by ADOT & MAG, and this freeway ended up being scrapped in the 1990s as a result. It was revived again after a 2004 extension of the sales tax, but still was delayed for various reasons.
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Originally Posted by cjseliga
Second, in Clark County they already had I-515 and US-95 as a limited access freeways, so once they finished the Boulder City bypass, of course I-11 was almost done in Clark County!
Doesn't it make you wonder why NDOT was able to complete those other freeways considering how Nevada's population is quite a bit smaller than Arizona's? Again, it has to do with the difference in the state governments. I'm sure NDOT has plenty of faults of their own, but they're apparently better organized than ADOT is.
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Originally Posted by cjseliga
Third, if you just want to talk about the I-11 segment between Las Vegas and Phoenix, Nevada has what 3%, while Arizona has 97% of that project, again it's like comparing apples and pineapples.
Every state has different priorities, for NDOT, the Las Vegas Metroplex is their #1 priority followed by the Reno-Carson City Metroplex, so it makes sense they wanted to finish that part of I-11, which is tiny compared to what ADOT has to do for I-11.
Yes, and when you compare the Vegas metro to the Phoenix metro, Vegas really has the better freeway system when you consider how much smaller in size Vegas is. Back in 1985, we were promised 231 miles of new freeways, but because a few of those projects were either scaled back or permanently scrapped, we ended up with about half of what was promised. Consider that if ADOT was better managed, the Grand Expressway could have been a reality, and the other proposed freeways (Tres Rios and Gateway) could have been completed by now.
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Originally Posted by cjseliga
You being a life long Arizonan, can easily see over the last 30+ years, what ADOT has done in upgrading US-93 between the Hoover Dam and Phoenix. Could they have done more over that time, sure, could they have also done less, absolutely.
Only the part of U.S. 93 from outside of Kingman to the Hoover Dam is fully divided. 93 from Kingman to Wickenburg has many hit & miss sections which go from 2 to 4 lanes, and is far from "upgraded".
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Originally Posted by cjseliga
ADOT has plans for a Beale St. Bypass (Kingman) and a Wickenburg Bypass, so it's not like they are totally obvious to the fact those things need to get done, it's just not a priority right now!
Wow, 2 bypasses in the planning stages. I wonder how long it will take to actually get dirt moving. Obviously, ADOT doesn't have a clue what priorities are, especially when one of their "priorities" was spending millions of dollars on rubberized asphalt, which ended up costing them even more to repair (and remove) when they realized how terrible the quality is.
You can defend ADOT all you want, but I as a life long Arizonan have witnessed ADOT's incompetence for too long. Based on this, I really don't have much confidence in any section of Arizona's I11 moving much beyond the concept stage in the near future.
You can defend ADOT all you want, but I as a life long Arizonan have witnessed ADOT's incompetence for too long. Based on this, I really don't have much confidence in any section of Arizona's I11 moving much beyond the concept stage in the near future.
You can hate ADOT all you want, like I mentioned, comparing two different states with vastly different transportation priorities is ridiculous, we both can agree to disagree!
Of course Nevada wants to make it as easy as possible to get to Vegas, it's their "cash cow", or used to be before the pandemic, it is their priority. Arizona's priority is NOT getting Arizonans to Las Vegas 40 minutes quicker, would it be nice to have a limited access interstate between the 2 cities, sure, but there's a heck of a lot more important projects throughout AZ than that one.
Nevada has less than half the population of AZ, plus they have the gambling money to help stuff those state coffers. Also, how many miles of Interstate highways does each state already have?
Having lived in 5 different states, including Arizona, and having traveled extensively throughout 43 states total, I know this might make you laugh, but ADOT is by far one of the best state transportation departments in the US, you don't know how good you have it in Arizona until you have lived elsewhere and traveled around the country.
How about this, since you like to make ridiculous comparisons, lets see how long it takes NDOT to complete I-11 from Las Vegas to Reno and how long ADOT takes to complete I-11 from the Hoover Dam to the Phoenix Area!
You can hate ADOT all you want, like I mentioned, comparing two different states with vastly different transportation priorities is ridiculous, we both can agree to disagree!
Of course Nevada wants to make it as easy as possible to get to Vegas, it's their "cash cow", or used to be before the pandemic, it is their priority. Arizona's priority is NOT getting Arizonans to Las Vegas 40 minutes quicker, would it be nice to have a limited access interstate between the 2 cities, sure, but there's a heck of a lot more important projects throughout AZ than that one.
Nevada has less than half the population of AZ, plus they have the gambling money to help stuff those state coffers. Also, how many miles of Interstate highways does each state already have?
Having lived in 5 different states, including Arizona, and having traveled extensively throughout 43 states total, I know this might make you laugh, but ADOT is by far one of the best state transportation departments in the US, you don't know how good you have it in Arizona until you have lived elsewhere and traveled around the country.
How about this, since you like to make ridiculous comparisons, lets see how long it takes NDOT to complete I-11 from Las Vegas to Reno and how long ADOT takes to complete I-11 from the Hoover Dam to the Phoenix Area!
You noted, very importantly, that the geographic location of Nevada's largest cities plays a large role in the amount of money the state spends on the highway systems there.
Las Vegas is 40 miles from the California border and 30 miles from the Arizona border. Reno is a mere 15 miles from the California border.
So, the geographic location of these two major Nevada cities favors the state in terms of money spent on roadways. The State of California (CalTrans) is responsible for everything along I-15 between Los Angeles and Primm, NV. CalTrans is also responsible for everything along I-80 from Sacramento over the Donner Pass to Verdi, NV.
I-15 out of San Bernardino is a long stretch of concrete! And, similarly, I-80 out of Auburn is high maintenance due to the snowy conditions in the Sierras.
The State of California spends a lot of money maintaining long and treacherous stretches of concrete while Nevada is responsible for barely 1/8 of that amount. So, in reality, California is paying for Nevada's benefit.
These are things that have to be taken into account, but seldom are. When I hear people say how "cheap" Nevada is, and how "awesome" it is that they don't charge income tax, they're only looking at the surface level of everything.
You noted, very importantly, that the geographic location of Nevada's largest cities plays a large role in the amount of money the state spends on the highway systems there.
Thanks, it's actually quite comical when I hear people mention Nevada built a 12.5 mile bypass around Boulder City, therefore NDOT is the greatest thing since sliced bread and ADOT or Caltrans are a piece of garbage!
Like you said, you have to take so many things into consideration, where are these cities located, both within their own state and it relation to other states, what are the needs for each state, where are the population centers and how big are they, what type of funding does each state use for major road projects, etc.
If Phoenix was located where Kingman is, yes there would have been a limited access interstate between Vegas and Phoenix already!
The widening of U.S. 93 near Wickenburg is one of four I-11-related projects that ADOT is using $155 million to complete over the next five years.
“ADOT has spent years investing in the future I-11 and laying the foundation for this border-to-border highway,” said John Halikowski, the agency’s director. “These substantial and continuing investments show our commitment to a corridor that is essential for commercial and recreational travel and also to making Arizona a better place to live and work.”
One of ADOT’s current projects is widening a 3-mile stretch of U.S. 93 near Wickenburg to a four-lane divided highway from one lane in each direction. The agency also will raise center medians and construct access frontage roads. All but 39 miles of the 200-mile drive from Wickenburg to the Nevada state line have been upgraded to a four-lane divided highway, according to ADOT.
“Every step we take to improve U.S. 93 gets us closer to the reality of I-11 through that particular area,” ADOT spokeswoman Laura Douglas told Transport Topics.
As for the other three projects, one will widen a 3-mile stretch of U.S. 93 near Wikieup, which is 75 miles northwest of Wickenburg. Another will involve the construction of an interchange in downtown Kingman, which sits 70 miles southeast of the Nevada state line at the intersection of U.S. 93 and I-40. A project slated for construction in fiscal 2025 will widen another stretch of U.S. 93 near Wickenburg.
You can hate ADOT all you want, like I mentioned, comparing two different states with vastly different transportation priorities is ridiculous, we both can agree to disagree!
Of course Nevada wants to make it as easy as possible to get to Vegas, it's their "cash cow", or used to be before the pandemic, it is their priority. Arizona's priority is NOT getting Arizonans to Las Vegas 40 minutes quicker, would it be nice to have a limited access interstate between the 2 cities, sure, but there's a heck of a lot more important projects throughout AZ than that one.
It's not only a matter of recreational travel to Vegas. A fair share of the vehicular traffic is long haul trucking, which is essential in delivery of goods. The lack of an interstate from Phoenix to Vegas translates to slower commutes for freight due to lower speed limits & limited services, especially the parts along 93 where the road narrows from 4 to 2 lanes.
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Originally Posted by cjseliga
Nevada has less than half the population of AZ, plus they have the gambling money to help stuff those state coffers. Also, how many miles of Interstate highways does each state already have?
Yep, and this is an indication that Arizona should strive to be a little more like Nevada in this sense. It's pretty embarrassing how a state with a much smaller population can get things done more efficiently, and not just in the Vegas area. Nevada's second largest metro area has the 580 north/south freeway in addition to I80, which I'd say isn't a bad accomplishment for an area with a population of less than a half million. Compare this to Arizona's second largest metro (population one million) with just one main freeway, and practically all other commuting is done on surface streets, causing gridlock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjseliga
Thanks, it's actually quite comical when I hear people mention Nevada built a 12.5 mile bypass around Boulder City, therefore NDOT is the greatest thing since sliced bread and ADOT or Caltrans are a piece of garbage!
Nobody has claimed that NDOT is anything spectacular. In fact, I don't know of any state transportation department which is close to perfection. I'm simply going by what I have witnessed from being a native Arizonan: lots of incompetence from ADOT over a long span of time, and it involves many things aside from the I11 issue. One of their recurring blunders is their budget shortfalls.
You correctly stated that their priority is transportation needs in the Phoenix metro area. If ADOT & MAG had allowed for cyclical economic downturns instead of basing their projections on high growth & revenue forecasts, they likely wouldn't have depleted the allotted funding to complete the freeway system which was planned in the 1980s. The Grand Expressway was part of that original plan, and it could have been an essential first step in the completion of I11, but it was scrapped.
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Originally Posted by cjseliga
Here's an article from September 2018, for those that say ADOT has done nothing with US-93 over the last 30 years
Nobody stated that nothing was done. In fact, the divided section between Kingman and the Hoover Dam could easily be upgraded to interstate quality with some adjustments. The section of I40 from Kingman to the 93 exit would serve as a dual interstate. If the stretch of 93 from I40 to Wickenburg was fully widened, again, it wouldn't take a huge amount of effort to serve as I11 with the needed upgrades.
This isn't rocket science. I11 could become a reality along existing roadways. But as I said before: with ADOT's track record of excuses, delays, and budget shortfalls, I don't expect much progress with a new interstate anytime in the near future.
Yep, and this is an indication that Arizona should strive to be a little more like Nevada in this sense. It's pretty embarrassing how a state with a much smaller population can get things done more efficiently, and not just in the Vegas area. Nevada's second largest metro area has the 580 north/south freeway in addition to I80, which I'd say isn't a bad accomplishment for an area with a population of less than a half million. Compare this to Arizona's second largest metro (population one million) with just one main freeway, and practically all other commuting is done on surface streets, causing gridlock.
I lived in Tucson for 7 years in Midtown and know all about the roadways there. The people living there decided what they wanted for the metroplex, which included no beltway or crosstown freeway.
Arizona has I-8, I-10, I-15, I-17, 1-19, I-40 and about 4 or 5 other freeways like AZ-51, AZ-101, AZ-202, AZ-303 and parts of US-60 that are all interstate quality, the Phoenix metroplex has one of the best freeway systems in the entire country and I've been to a lot of them throughout the country.
Like I mentioned, you need to look at the big picture of running a state department of transportation, Nevada's funding is totally different than Arizona's, its locations of its major metro areas are totally different, the dynamics are totally different.
Maybe if you ever lived somewhere else, you would truly appreciate what Arizona has to offer, including its roadways, and not be such a Debbie downer, Nevada is not all rainbows and butterflies!
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Originally Posted by Valley Native
Nobody stated that nothing was done. In fact, the divided section between Kingman and the Hoover Dam could easily be upgraded to interstate quality with some adjustments. The section of I40 from Kingman to the 93 exit would serve as a dual interstate. If the stretch of 93 from I40 to Wickenburg was fully widened, again, it wouldn't take a huge amount of effort to serve as I11 with the needed upgrades.
You said "Only the part of U.S. 93 from outside of Kingman to the Hoover Dam is fully divided. 93 from Kingman to Wickenburg has many hit & miss sections which go from 2 to 4 lanes, and is far from "upgraded"."
That is blatantly false, a ton of US-93 from I-40 to Wickenburg has been upgraded to fulled divided over the last 30 years and more is being done. That stretch is about 100 miles long (from I-40 to Wickenburg) and only 39 miles remain to be "twined", so clearly US-93 from the Dam to Kingman is NOT the only part of that US-93 in Arizona that is fully divided!
I lived in Tucson for 7 years in Midtown and know all about the roadways there. The people living there decided what they wanted for the metroplex, which included no beltway or crosstown freeway.
I can't argue with this point. NIMBYism is one of the reasons for why some projects have been delayed or not completed. It's not the main reason, but it did contribute to the needless delay of the South Mountain 202 extension, and why Tucson only has one major freeway & gridlocked city streets.
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Originally Posted by cjseliga
Arizona has I-8, I-10, I-15, I-17, 1-19, I-40 and about 4 or 5 other freeways like AZ-51, AZ-101, AZ-202, AZ-303 and parts of US-60 that are all interstate quality, the Phoenix metroplex has one of the best freeway systems in the entire country and I've been to a lot of them throughout the country.
Yes, Phoenix does have a pretty good freeway system, but it took what seemed like an eternity to reach this point. Again, part of the delay was an early resistance to freeways (NIMBYism), but the main reason was horrible management on the part of ADOT & MAG. There was a time from the 1970s through much of the '90s when Phoenix was way behind on freeways compared to other smaller metro areas. Even Interstate 10 wasn't completed through downtown until 1990, which was one of the last stretches of interstate to be finished under the original 1956 federal program.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjseliga
Like I mentioned, you need to look at the big picture of running a state department of transportation, Nevada's funding is totally different than Arizona's, its locations of its major metro areas are totally different, the dynamics are totally different.
Maybe if you ever lived somewhere else, you would truly appreciate what Arizona has to offer, including its roadways, and not be such a Debbie downer, Nevada is not all rainbows and butterflies!
You obviously weren't here in the '80s & '90s when audits were done, and it was revealed that ADOT mis managed the allotted funds from the half cent tax approved in 1985 to build the freeway network. We're still feeling the effects of that to this day: no Grand Expressway (what could have been the start of I11), and no Paradise Parkway (an east/west crosstown route). While we're at it, where are those new freeways we voted for in 2004, such as the 30 and the 24?
Stop and think that perhaps one big reason why Arizona appears to have a better road system compared to other states is the lack of inclement weather conditions. This alone should be reason enough for ADOT to move faster on highway projects ... especially when considering how many other areas experience worse travel/road conditions due to hazardous winter weather + more rain & storms. Yet, those areas somehow managed to finish their transportation systems long before Arizona did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjseliga
You said "Only the part of U.S. 93 from outside of Kingman to the Hoover Dam is fully divided. 93 from Kingman to Wickenburg has many hit & miss sections which go from 2 to 4 lanes, and is far from "upgraded"."
That is blatantly false, a ton of US-93 from I-40 to Wickenburg has been upgraded to fulled divided over the last 30 years and more is being done. That stretch is about 100 miles long (from I-40 to Wickenburg) and only 39 miles remain to be "twined", so clearly US-93 from the Dam to Kingman is NOT the only part of that US-93 in Arizona that is fully divided!
You're contradicting yourself because you admitted that the stretch from I40 to Wickenburg still has miles that are undivided (2 lanes only). So obviously, that stretch is NOT fully divided. Only the part of 93 from Kingman to the Nevada state line is fully divided all the way.
You're contradicting yourself because you admitted that the stretch from I40 to Wickenburg still has miles that are undivided (2 lanes only). So obviously, that stretch is NOT fully divided. Only the part of 93 from Kingman to the Nevada state line is fully divided all the way.
The way you put it, makes it seems like there is NO 4 lane divided sections from I-40 to Wickenburg, when in fact 61 miles of that 100 mile section is divided, is it continuous, no, but 60% of that stretch is 4 lanes and divided, that's what I was pointing out! When I'm referring to "fully divided", I'm just referring to the 4 lane sections and not the 2 lanes sections, from I-40 to Wickenburg.
I can see our miscommunication, when you say fully divided you are referring to the entire stretch as a whole, where as I'm looking at the various sections over that I-40 to Wickenburg stretch that are fully divided, my apologies.
Like I mentioned previously, we will just have to agree to disagree about ADOT, I would rank them probably in the Top 10 of state departments of transportation across the United States.
Last edited by cjseliga; 12-03-2020 at 10:15 AM..
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