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This is not a jab at teachers. I mean more discipline instilled at home and carried over to school.
Disruptive students are a major factor requiring low student to teacher ratios. If there were more discipline in the classroom and fewer disruptions, class sizes could be larger (30+) without slowing the pace. This would reduce the cost of education.
This is not a jab at teachers. I mean more discipline instilled at home and carried over to school.
Disruptive students are a major factor requiring low student to teacher ratios. If there were more discipline in the classroom and fewer disruptions, class sizes could be larger (30+) without slowing the pace. This would reduce the cost of education.
Why just pick on education.
When you have to go to the DMV, why not just have 1 clerk instead of 8?
One grocery checkout instead of 5?
One gas pump instead of 10?
One nurse in the emergency room.
Actually, some studies in the past showed that it took a class size of over 40 to affect actual student performance negatively.
But that doesn't mean it's a good idea. Lots of negatives.
I found that when I had more than about 35 kids in a class I'd start losing track of them. My largest class ever, in the smallest classroom in the building, was 48 in a Multi-Level class (you know what that means but for those who don't it means a mix of regular ed and mainstreamed SPED).
The issue with larger class sizes is what I mentioned, unless the class is a homogeneous group the mix of abilities is hard to keep up with and someone, or several someones, will end up being lost in the shuffle.
Olus, in larger classes the odds of having at least one kid, oftentimes more than one, whose sole reason to exist is to disrupt whatever he can as much as he can.
I found that when I had more than about 35 kids in a class I'd start losing track of them. My largest class ever, in the smallest classroom in the building, was 48 in a Multi-Level class (you know what that means but for those who don't it means a mix of regular ed and mainstreamed SPED).
The issue with larger class sizes is what I mentioned, unless the class is a homogeneous group the mix of abilities is hard to keep up with and someone, or several someones, will end up being lost in the shuffle.
Olus, in larger classes the odds of having at least one kid, oftentimes more than one, whose sole reason to exist is to disrupt whatever he can as much as he can.
And then there's the science teacher -- as I was -- who needs to typically have (on average) two labs a week. Let's see...a class size of about 25, 5 classes a day...sure, I can grade/evaluate 250 labs a week (and often did). But when in PG County I ended up with 6 classes a day, 40 each...I could not evaluage 480 labs a week. Nope. Couldn't do it. Left for greener pastures. And that's another factor. When possible, the best teachers move to school systems with the best teaching conditions.
When you have to go to the DMV, why not just have 1 clerk instead of 8?
One grocery checkout instead of 5?
One gas pump instead of 10?
One nurse in the emergency room.
Let's cut those prices!
You yourself stated that it's possible to have thirty students or more in a class without hitting some limit where teaching effectiveness decreases.
Let's flip your argument around... Why not have one on one tutoring of every student in school?
Because it would cost too much relative to the gain in performance. And because it would cost too much period.
I clearly framed the issue as if you do X such that performance metric Y does not decline.
We're discussing tradeoffs in a cost-benefit analysis, not strawmen.
As a teacher, I think there is a sweet spot for class size. A class too small isn't dynamic enough for best learning - I remember one year I had a class with 11 students and it was as hard as my class of 39. Anything from 20-35 or so all felt about the same, but it was harder to get to know my students well and give them individual attention when it was 35 students, and it was more stressful in terms of the volume of grading and people to manage, bodies filling the space to the point of feeling really crowded, etc., - not having enough desks and what not. I wonder if our classrooms were designed to accommodate larger groups if that would help - I really think it would. The facilities can be as big an issue as anything. But when the volume of things got too high, it becomes harder to give good attention to detail and to one assignment or student in particular. You have less energy for creative thinking when it comes to lesson planning and so on.
Back in the 1970's/1980's I went to parochial schools from grades 1 through 12. Class sizes were usually 40. Physical discipline was always a possibility, hence not so much disruption. But the classes weren't very personal, teachers basically followed rote learning methods, it was more indoctrination than learning.
Additionally, a co-worker of mine used to be a teacher, but got out of that and into software development. His one comment about teaching was that classes moved at the speed of the slowest student. My observation is that the larger the class, the more likely the class is to have a "slow" student. By slow, I mean that it takes said student longer to learn, longer to process and retain the information, not that the student is incapable of learning.
Back in the 1970's/1980's ...
Class sizes were usually 40 ... teachers basically followed rote learning methods ...
I'll call this experience a follow on to what was learned dealing with the first boomer wave: 50's and 60's :
a) The changes wrought by having 1000 students in facilities with staff levels meant for far fewer
facing the ever rising population - soon with 2000 students and trailers for overflow.
b) Changes in disciplinary and diversionary tactics/options available for the problematic students
(the unprepared, the unable, the unwilling, the disruptive, etc).
With these ideas in mind I believe that any reckoning of where the saturation sweet spot lies today
needs to start with a deeper understanding and appreciation for how the earlier frame of reference was able to function ...
and the reality that public school teachers today have taken on responsibilities FAR FAR beyond education.
Thread THOSE needles.
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