Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Interesting point, even if off topic, is the state of some of those northern forest trails after the big wind of a couple years ago. I can’t imagine some of those areas will be cleared of fallen trees in decades if at all. Streams are clogged with fallen timber. It is not just trails. All of that is fuel for a future conflagration beyond what we saw last year.
Yeah there was a huge blowdown, and a number of the trails are in progress of getting that cleared out. It's interesting, it's like a fire by another means for the forest - probably less destructive cause it preserves the soil. What I was talking about is being overgrown by 5' tall scrub oak - that speaks to decades of lack of maintenance.
Back on the topic of Spanish in NM - it seems like NM isn't that different from the story of Mexico and Central America of a merging of Native and Spanish - it's just novel within the US border. The native influence is different based on different tribes. To your point, one of the big differences is the integration vs separation via reservation. To the extent that it was a conscious decision by the Spanish I don't know. It could have been acceptance or it could have been realization that there was no way they could "send them to reservations" because how much the natives outnumbered the Spanish.
Also, tomorrow, the statue of Juan de Onate is supposed to be resurrected in front of the Rio Arriba county courthouse. That is so ****ed up! This is a direct display of oppression where it's placed and given the history - it's not even veiled at all.
I stand by my original statement - the sooner the fawning and romanticizing of the Spanish past gets buried, the better. We're something better now with the current mix and acceptance of all people in the state.
Back on the topic of Spanish in NM - it seems like NM isn't that different from the story of Mexico and Central America of a merging of Native and Spanish - it's just novel within the US border.
I think that is true -- but there is some sort of fixation with labels and putting people in one category or another and then assigning or debating values in the US. I don't know if that is as much the case south of the border.
On the other hand, I recall in Peru, and maybe Bolivia, the Andean women had different colored fedora hats that they wore originally corresponding to the degree of Spanish heritage they had. That was imposed by the colonial Spanish, but the hats are still worn today.
The native influence is different based on different tribes. To your point, one of the big differences is the integration vs separation via reservation. To the extent that it was a conscious decision by the Spanish I don't know. It could have been acceptance or it could have been realization that there was no way they could "send them to reservations" because how much the natives outnumbered the Spanish.
The Indian population could have crushed the Spanish in Mexico but didn't. The Mexican constitution bestowed citizenship on the Indian population when independence was wrestled from Spain. That status was to be upheld by the US under the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo in 1848 but was somehow lost in the shuffle.
Also, tomorrow, the statue of Juan de Onate is supposed to be resurrected in front of the Rio Arriba county courthouse. That is so ****ed up! This is a direct display of oppression where it's placed and given the history - it's not even veiled at all.
Onate was so bad that even the Spanish had a problem with him, and he was sent packing. Sure, he was the 1st governor, he brought settlers into NM, but was cruel and abusive in the extreme. Rehabilitating him as some sort of hero is not helpful -- but he was cut from the same cloth of a lot of Spanish conquistadors. He established the Encomienda system in New Mexico (supported by the Spanish administration), a medieval practice of serfdom tying the Indians to the land owned by the Spanish grantees. Indians had to work at the grantee's direction in return for the "benefits" (wtf?) of Spanish control. That practice ended in 1680 with the Pueblo revolt. The church helpfully imposed the inquisition as an added feature of Spanish control.
I stand by my original statement - the sooner the fawning and romanticizing of the Spanish past gets buried, the better. We're something better now with the current mix and acceptance of all people in the state.
There's no going back. That era is woven permanently into the fabric of NM history. The old families are still here and make up a core of the state's majority population. There are efforts to preserve the old dialect. There is even a genetic condition that is tied to some of those old families that UNM is trying to research. The influence of the old families probably varies based on location and local practice. New Mexico's history is fascinating and confusing.
Interesting about the hats - it's weird how certain things just get absorbed into lifestyle.
Good point about the Indians not totally demolishing the spanish when they had the chance, if they were truly all brutal - that's likely what would have happened. There must have been interrelationships and codependences by that point to where they wanted to be together.
It's certainly a very interesting history - and I think a very neat path ahead to see what the state evolves into as it grows ahead, as all these elements spin around and new things emerge out!
I once had a girlfriend that was Spanish and Basque in Albuquerque. Nearly everyone we knew was either Anglo or Hispanic (mostly from Mexico, but had been living in New Mexico for many generations). When we were out together, Hispanics would start talking to her in Spanish, but it was quite different than the little bit of pure Spanish that she knew.
This is very, very strange. I haven't seen or heard from that person for over 5 years. Just as I was typing this above, the mgr of my apt building knocked on my door and said she had just called and left her number. Twilight zone stuff.
Last edited by stephenMM; 10-03-2023 at 10:37 AM..
I have a close relative who owned and lived in Black Forest for several years. They almost lost their house in the big fire (got lucky). I checked out the area about 3-4 years ago when I was passing through. The area is nothing special, especially now that zillions of tract homes have been built just north of there a few miles. All kinds of big shopping centers and other amenities too. The once rural area is ruined. And yes, there is no comparison with Taos.
As for jobs, people in NM are still working for $7.50/hr or whatever the minimum wage is now. So they're supposed to commute several miles to and from a job where they make a pithy amount that supports not even one person?
When I lived in the area (NM), the rents were not "affordable." It still requires 2 people to make rent on a pithy salary. Then they have to have childcare if they are parents. As you know it's a small rural area, there are very few high paying jobs.
We all know that if developers had a good monetary reason to build myriad homes and develop Taos, they would. They would have done it ages ago, in fact. Fortunately there are laws in place to keep ticky-tack from being thrown up. At least there is some semblance of sanity but it's still eroding.
I'll just say this - I've been doing some trail scouting for the local trail association. A good portion of the hiking trails that are not on the roads to the ski areas are either in disrepair or so completely overgrown and covered in blowdown they are 100% unusable. 40 years ago, these trails were all operational, or else they wouldn't have made it onto the Forest Services list of marked trails.
If the locals actually cared about their land, they wouldn't let everything go to crap and become dilapidated. If it wasn't for the ski areas, the rest of the county's trails would be in the same crap shape. I've been to trail volunteer events. Not one volunteer was born in Taos. I'm freakin sick of hearing "locals" gripe and complain while they let the greater land area they reside in fall apart. I just talked to a person my age who's family goes back to conquistadors in the Taos area. He straight up said the original families are complete grumps that complain about everything - including some of his own family. And there's a lot of extended family / 2nd cousin type of marriage. Used to be that way in Taos, not anymore, but Chama is still like that.
I would just LOVE to go back to this.
I want to add this - most all the actual in person encounters I've had, regardless of the persons age or heritage have been positive. The people here are in general pretty awesome. The ones that gripe and complain must not get out and socialize much.
As a person who has lived in Taos and adores it, and also lived in Santa Fe, I thank you for your realistic assessments of the local culture and also for posting learned, literate and important historical information about the settlement and evolution of northern New Mexico.
I fall into none of the cultural groups you speak of, being a gringa who is a photographer, a writer and an artist. (Neither now nor ever a hippie, I hasten to add.) My chief preoccupations are the arts. My eternal search for an artist's colony led me to Taos twenty years ago, when it was still affordable. I clearly should have stayed. I did not, alas. Real estate prices have now gone through the roof, and now that I am retired and want to return, I can't afford either place.
I am relegated to a search in Silver City, which has none of the cultural heritage of either Santa Fe or Taos, and zero charm, although it does promote itself as an "artist's colony."
Pithy is an adjective meaning concise, exact, succinct, etc. It is used to describe a remark that is particularly clever, or sums up something in an especially adept way. The word wouldn't be used as a description of the size of one's salary. Doing so makes no sense.
You do understand personal familial slang used historically within families? My parents were both born in the 1920's and my grandfather was born in 1886.
I reserve the right to use it. Plenty of other people use words incorrectly. I rarely do. But thank you for the edification. I already knew what the word meant. Like I said, context is everything. Have you seen the "I can't take it anymore thread" in the Writing Forum? Put my post there if you like.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
