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View Poll Results: Your opinion of wolf restoration
Just great, in just about every wilderness 10 66.67%
Great, but let's keep it to Yellowstone and Idaho 3 20.00%
Get rid of them, again 2 13.33%
Others, and people who voted, post away! 0 0%
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-28-2023, 02:29 PM
 
Location: New York Area
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How Wolves Are Driving Down Mountain Lion Populations

This article is an interesting one. Back in 1968 I read an article partially about Yellowstone National Park in an issue focusing on national parks. Part of the article focused on elk and other ungulate overpopulation of Yellowstone. Hay was imported to feed them during the winters. This article suggested that the cause of overpopulation was the elimination of wolves and mountain lions during the early 1920's. The last known wolf was killed in 1926. Excerpt from above article:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithsonian Magazine
Elbroch suspects that the drastic drop was largely due to wolves affecting the cats’ access to prey, namely elk. In a wolf-less study site, elk herds resided in the comfort of the mountains; when the wolves moved in, the herds started congregating in large groups in the open grasslands to protect themselves from a pack attack. Since mountain lions stealthily stalk and ambush their prey under the cover of brush, they couldn't reach the elk in the grasslands, and starvation became a more common cause of death among the cats.
Somehow, miraculously, the stars aligned, and in January 1995 twin reintroductions of wolves, one into Yellowstone, the other into a National Wilderness area in Idaho succeeded. The benefits became apparent later, see We Were Wrong About Wolves, Here’s Why. Excerpt:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Defenders of Wildlife site
The changes in the park have been exciting and significant. Wolf reintroduction caused unanticipated change in Yellowstone. It rebalanced elk and deer populations, allowing the willows and aspen to return to the landscape. The end to overgrazing stabilized riverbanks and rivers recovered and flowed in new directions. Songbirds returned as did beavers, eagles, foxes and badgers. And, while the restoration of wolves in Yellowstone has cost about $30 million total, wolf ecotourism brings in $35 million annually.
Granted, the article is about the negative effects off wolf reintroduction on mountain lions. But remember, those were virtually nonexistent in Yellowstone and environs back in 1968. Without their natural competitors, the wolves, their population may have gotten a bit ahead of itself. But on balance, it's good to have "man's best friend's" cousin, the wolf, back.
Let's hope they have a wider homecoming, to the Adirondacks, northern New Hampshire and Maine, and other appropriate areas.
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Old 06-29-2023, 01:34 PM
 
Location: North Idaho
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I like the idea of having a few wolves living out in the wilderness, but if humans want to have wolves, but keep intentionally interfering with Mother Nature's survival programs, then we need to have regulated hunting of wolves. Both to keep the population in check and to teach the wolves to respect humans and to stay away from them.

The same for cougars. I like them. I am happy that they are out there, but again, there needs to be enough regulated hunting to control the population and to keep the big predators respectful.
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Old 06-29-2023, 03:28 PM
 
Location: New York Area
34,993 posts, read 16,964,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oregonwoodsmoke View Post
I like the idea of having a few wolves living out in the wilderness, but if humans want to have wolves, but keep intentionally interfering with Mother Nature's survival programs, then we need to have regulated hunting of wolves. Both to keep the population in check and to teach the wolves to respect humans and to stay away from them.

The same for cougars. I like them. I am happy that they are out there, but again, there needs to be enough regulated hunting to control the population and to keep the big predators respectful.
I totally agree. They have to be hunted just enough to keep them afraid of man. After all, wolves domesticated themselves into dogs, but a repeat of that would not be in our interests.

One thing I am surprised about; the article did not mention how bad wolves are for the coyote population. Certainly much worse for them than mountain lions.
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Old 06-29-2023, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MISSOURI
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One thing I've often fantasized about in Missouri would be to reintroduce cougar and wolf populations in the Ozarks. There are already some cougars there that appear to have wandered over there from the Black Hills. Some wolves would be cool, too. They recently reintroduced elk there to the extent they even have a small hunting season.

But I'm sure if anyone broached the idea of doing that there would be howls of protest from the locals. There's a good-sized cattle ranching industry in south Missouri.
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Old 06-29-2023, 05:48 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
18,158 posts, read 15,616,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
How Wolves Are Driving Down Mountain Lion Populations

This article is an interesting one. Back in 1968 I read an article partially about Yellowstone National Park in an issue focusing on national parks. Part of the article focused on elk and other ungulate overpopulation of Yellowstone. Hay was imported to feed them during the winters. This article suggested that the cause of overpopulation was the elimination of wolves and mountain lions during the early 1920's. The last known wolf was killed in 1926. Excerpt from above article:

Somehow, miraculously, the stars aligned, and in January 1995 twin reintroductions of wolves, one into Yellowstone, the other into a National Wilderness area in Idaho succeeded. The benefits became apparent later, see We Were Wrong About Wolves, Here’s Why. Excerpt:


Granted, the article is about the negative effects off wolf reintroduction on mountain lions. But remember, those were virtually nonexistent in Yellowstone and environs back in 1968. Without their natural competitors, the wolves, their population may have gotten a bit ahead of itself. But on balance, it's good to have "man's best friend's" cousin, the wolf, back.
Let's hope they have a wider homecoming, to the Adirondacks, northern New Hampshire and Maine, and other appropriate areas.
Wolves are very contentious topic. There isn't much in the way of middle ground about it. It makes sense that cat populations might shrink when wolves are tossed back into the mix. Elk don't make up near so much of the cat's food supply here in NV as they do up North. Venison is the staple meat but cat's like to prowl on the Bighorns too. And we have no wolves (officially). Sightings have been reported and I know one guy got a REALLY good BW picture. Outside of Reno no less. Twixt Verdi and Floriston.

But though they may be about they aren't hardly in charge of the food chain. Cats are still the big Kahuna's herebouts. Now where they have the numbers to pack up and prey grows large that's a different animal. Wolves will easily displace cats at the top of the chain. Cats don't pack up and these wolves I've been seeing pics of up North have an easy 20 0r 30 pounds on the most of cats. A big cat goes around a buck 20. That's a BIG one. These wolves are averaging that size. Life is good methinks.

I've got no issue with wolves but if I were running stock in Montana or Wyoming I just might. I have had issues with cats and of course coyotes and feral dogs and the thought of coexisting alongside wolves in the wild places does spook me some. The former critters are bad enough. For the most part we have an understanding the local predators and me. There's always a cold war going on and it do turn hot sometimes. ooof...Adding in a big bada$$ canine like real wolves leaves me wondering how that would look.
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Old 06-29-2023, 06:43 PM
 
5,703 posts, read 4,276,476 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I totally agree. They have to be hunted just enough to keep them afraid of man.



How do dead wolves learn to be afraid of man?
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Old 06-29-2023, 07:47 PM
 
Location: New York Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deserterer View Post
How do dead wolves learn to be afraid of man?
Wolves are pack animals, and extremely intelligent. They learn from what happens to their pack-mates.
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Old 06-29-2023, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Rochester, WA
14,458 posts, read 12,081,453 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deserterer View Post
How do dead wolves learn to be afraid of man?
They get away. Probably most of the time. If they stay wary and get away, they survive. If they become too complacent or too bold they get killed.

They behave differently when they are regularly pursued.

I am not a big fan of wolf introduction in most places in the continental US. I think there's too many people now who are not going to be prepared for living amongst wolf packs, and what that will mean for their vulnerable livestock, their pets and their kids. Following social media, many around here aren't even well prepared for the coyotes that come in their yard, let alone wolves. I'm afraid it will inevitably end badly for many, not the least of which will be the wolves.

I guess I'm between your options.

Of course, it's not up to me. We'll see what happens.
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Old 06-30-2023, 07:13 AM
 
78,327 posts, read 60,527,398 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
How Wolves Are Driving Down Mountain Lion Populations

This article is an interesting one. Back in 1968 I read an article partially about Yellowstone National Park in an issue focusing on national parks. Part of the article focused on elk and other ungulate overpopulation of Yellowstone. Hay was imported to feed them during the winters. This article suggested that the cause of overpopulation was the elimination of wolves and mountain lions during the early 1920's. The last known wolf was killed in 1926. Excerpt from above article:

Somehow, miraculously, the stars aligned, and in January 1995 twin reintroductions of wolves, one into Yellowstone, the other into a National Wilderness area in Idaho succeeded. The benefits became apparent later, see We Were Wrong About Wolves, Here’s Why. Excerpt:


Granted, the article is about the negative effects off wolf reintroduction on mountain lions. But remember, those were virtually nonexistent in Yellowstone and environs back in 1968. Without their natural competitors, the wolves, their population may have gotten a bit ahead of itself. But on balance, it's good to have "man's best friend's" cousin, the wolf, back.
Let's hope they have a wider homecoming, to the Adirondacks, northern New Hampshire and Maine, and other appropriate areas.
I'd like to add something about the reintroduction. Officially, it was 1995, but they did it over ten years earlier on the down-low so as to avoid a backlash from ranchers etc.

There has been some admission to this.

I can further support this because around 1980, my family visited there and my father had excellent vision and awareness and spotted wolves along a distant tree line (we were in yellowstone) and got 8mm video of them.

I had all of that digitized a number of years back, I have that footage around here somewhere.
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Old 06-30-2023, 08:55 AM
 
Location: New York Area
34,993 posts, read 16,964,237 times
Reputation: 30099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
I'd like to add something about the reintroduction. Officially, it was 1995, but they did it over ten years earlier on the down-low so as to avoid a backlash from ranchers etc.

There has been some admission to this.

I can further support this because around 1980, my family visited there and my father had excellent vision and awareness and spotted wolves along a distant tree line (we were in yellowstone) and got 8mm video of them.

I had all of that digitized a number of years back, I have that footage around here somewhere.
More likely, those wolves were dispersed from Glacier National Park and environs, where they were never totally eliminated.
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