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The US Census Bureau has always included Missouri as part of the Midwest. But of course, most people who know the state well, will usually split it into two halves culturally and geographically. One (southern half) being more aligned to the South and Bible Belt, and the other (northern) always to the Heartland/Midwest.
In my view though, if you exclude Kansas City and St. Louis, there’s barely anything Midwestern about the northern half of Missouri either and the whole state should be considered southern on a cultural level, and for a few reasons;
*The land is no less rugged or hilly than further south, as well as Arkansas, and therefor is not suitable for farmland. Rich farmland being an essential characteristic of Midwestern geography of course
*Much of the land situated on the northern banks of the Missouri River and even as far north as Shelby County near Iowa, were historically part of “Little Dixie” in the pre-Civil War era, somewhere settled first by Southerners and thus made into a hotbed for slavery
*Evangelicals dominate much of rural/small town northern Missouri just as much as southern. The Midwest is famous for being plural in this case
So what are your thoughts on this? Do you think all of rural/small town Missouri is southern, including the northern half and that people often overstate how Midwestern the state is or am I missing something here?
Last edited by Doughboy1918; 05-01-2023 at 10:06 PM..
This is a dead horse but beat it if you like. You might as well say that Kansas and Illinois are the South and not Midwestern.
The actual South fades away somewhere among the southern counties of Missouri. If there is a debate, that is where it lies and there are several threads on that topic. There are enclaves of Southerness in some areas farther north but a lot of that is amplified and related to tourism. There is a river culture that follows the Mississippi and Missouri rivers that might seem Southern but is more infiltrated with German and some French colonial history. The mining district had a significant European immigrant infiltration. Missouri was a slave state but that economic model was limited to a few agricultural areas. Otherwise, slaves were more like farm hands and domestic servants, though still held as slaves. Most of the northern half is rural and somewhat sparsely populated but not to be confused as Southern. Shelby County has a population density of under 13 people per square mile. Most, if not all, would not think of themselves as Southerners. Having lived there, Little Dixie is mostly considered as Callaway, Boone, and Howard Counties but that distinction is dying out. Columbia, in Boone County, is the 4th largest city in the state and not very Southern.
This is a dead horse but beat it if you like. You might as well say that Kansas and Illinois are the South and not Midwestern.
The actual South fades away somewhere among the southern counties of Missouri. If there is a debate, that is where it lies and there are several threads on that topic. There are enclaves of Southerness in some areas farther north but a lot of that is amplified and related to tourism. There is a river culture that follows the Mississippi and Missouri rivers that might seem Southern but is more infiltrated with German and some French colonial history. The mining district had a significant European immigrant infiltration. Missouri was a slave state but that economic model was limited to a few agricultural areas. Otherwise, slaves were more like farm hands and domestic servants, though still held as slaves. Most of the northern half is rural and somewhat sparsely populated but not to be confused as Southern. Shelby County has a population density of under 13 people per square mile. Most, if not all, would not think of themselves as Southerners. Having lived there, Little Dixie is mostly considered as Callaway, Boone, and Howard Counties but that distinction is dying out. Columbia, in Boone County, is the 4th largest city in the state and not very Southern.
Most agree on this forum Missouri is about 50 percent Midwestern, 25 percent a transition zone like Southern IN and southern IL and 25 percent fully southern. Usually US 50 is the dividing line where the transition zone begins.
There are still a few pockets north of that area that have southern influence traces left. Even in northern Missouri there is a bible belt feel when crossing from Iowa, just the change.
One thing I notice a lot is before 1970 the term border state, or border south was used a lot to describe Missouri in news articles. It wasn't called midwest a lot like it is now.
Different time period. Missouri and the border south states in general were all more southern back then than today. Those old timers have all died out.
Missouri is partially a southern state depending on the region. Nothing Midwestern about Branson, Sikeston, West Plains, even Lebanon has strong southern feel to it. The far eastern portion along the MS river for example has very little transition zone. Goes from midwest to south in a very short distance. Perry County Missouri is midwestern, but hit Jackson a few miles down the road and it's pretty southern.
The rest of Missouri the transition zone is gradual. Starts off like southern IL and IN and becomes more southern as you head south. When you're about 15 miles north of US60 Missouri is southern. Anywhere within 50 miles of Arkansas in Missouri is pretty much Dixie at that point.
I44 is a good highway to notice the gradual transition. Once you get out of Stl county you gradually notice the transition zone getting stronger.
This is from the Univ of PA study. and the green part for Missouri is VERY accurate I think. Except for far eastern Missouri maybe extend that line 10 to 15 miles north. Anything above those green areas is that transition zone more like southern IL with midwest culture and southern mixed in.
The univ PA study for Missouri is very accurate with that southern dividing line though. Pretty much settles MO 25 percent fully dixie.
I was reading a study from the Springfield Chamber of Commerce from the late 1950s regarding accommodations and segregation and listing businesses that were and were not segregated. I was pretty shocked that nearly all the businesses in Springfield were segregated. Either didn't serve blacks at all, or only allowed to sit in certain areas. Most hotels also didn't not allow blacks to stay there. Again, in that part of MO not shocking most restaurants didn't serve blacks. That's not something you'd see in the middle or MN or IA.
Being I'm from St. Louis originally that in modern times is a lower midwest city now. But the thing is it's hard to put you finger on it, but the areas outside of the transition zone in Missouri you can still feel very faint hints that MO at one time was more southern. Even St. Louis County, just a slight different feel than somewhere in the middle of Ohio.
Think of it like Stl was a border city in the 1800s. It's like you took a shovel and scraped it out over the years and repaved it with midwestern culture, but tiny traces of it still bleed thru.
But overall with Missouri, I think border state is still the best way to describe it! Politically though it's southern with the abortion laws, firearms, state government, taxes and religion southern baptist outnumber Catholics. Not much difference between politics. Politics lines up with the South, not midwest in the behavior of it. Totally different than Nebraska for example. Missouri also had school segregation, housing segregation in many cities, interracial marriage and adoption bans as well, and nearly passed a poll tax in 1904 and toyed with the idea for the state flag to put the Roman Cross in it (MO Confederate battle flag).
I find this interesting. 1976 the repeal of school segregation in the MO constitution. 42 percent voted to keep it on the constitution. Also, congressmen in southern Missouri and the central MO little dixie region voted against the Civil rights act.
The US Census Bureau has always included Missouri as part of the Midwest. But of course, most people who know the state well, will usually split it into two halves culturally and geographically. One (southern half) being more aligned to the South and Bible Belt, and the other (northern) always to the Heartland/Midwest.
In my view though, if you exclude Kansas City and St. Louis, there’s barely anything Midwestern about the northern half of Missouri either and the whole state should be considered southern on a cultural level, and for a few reasons;
*The land is no less rugged or hilly than further south, as well as Arkansas, and therefor is not suitable for farmland. Rich farmland being an essential characteristic of Midwestern geography of course
*Much of the land situated on the northern banks of the Missouri River and even as far north as Shelby County near Iowa, were historically part of “Little Dixie” in the pre-Civil War era, somewhere settled first by Southerners and thus made into a hotbed for slavery
*Evangelicals dominate much of rural/small town northern Missouri just as much as southern. The Midwest is famous for being plural in this case
So what are your thoughts on this? Do you think all of rural/small town Missouri is southern, including the northern half and that people often overstate how Midwestern the state is or am I missing something here?
Not overstated in my opinion.
Northern Missouri is nothing but farmland, so I don’t understand that one. Besides, no one disputes that the Northwoods and the UP aren’t in the midwest just because it’s not farmland.
Kansas City and St. Louis are where a huge chunk of the population lives. Removing them drastically changes what Missouri is.
I’ve lived in 4 undoubtedly southern states as well as Missouri and while some parts of Missouri might have some southern influence, it’s not actually southern.
When I lived in Arkansas, Springfield seemed like it might as well be in Iowa because it was so different. Of course I know it’s a good bit different than Iowa, but that just illustrates how different Springfield felt to where I was coming from.
The US Census Bureau has always included Missouri as part of the Midwest. But of course, most people who know the state well, will usually split it into two halves culturally and geographically. One (southern half) being more aligned to the South and Bible Belt, and the other (northern) always to the Heartland/Midwest.
In my view though, if you exclude Kansas City and St. Louis, there’s barely anything Midwestern about the northern half of Missouri either and the whole state should be considered southern on a cultural level, and for a few reasons;
*The land is no less rugged or hilly than further south, as well as Arkansas, and therefor is not suitable for farmland. Rich farmland being an essential characteristic of Midwestern geography of course
I'm no expert on this but I believe much of northern Missouri is considered rich farmland.
*Much of the land situated on the northern banks of the Missouri River and even as far north as Shelby County near Iowa, were historically part of “Little Dixie” in the pre-Civil War era, somewhere settled first by Southerners and thus made into a hotbed for slavery
There was slavery along the little dixie parts of Missouri no question. Is it still southern? It is rural. Rural people tend to be more alike than different now, whether they live in Alabama or Lincoln County, Missouri.
*Evangelicals dominate much of rural/small town northern Missouri just as much as southern. The Midwest is famous for being plural in this plural.
There are still large Catholic pockets in Northern and Eastern Missouri, including little dixie. A lot of German Catholics settled in those places.
So what are your thoughts on this? Do you think all of rural/small town Missouri is southern, including the northern half and that people often overstate how Midwestern the state is or am I missing something here?
I think there are some southern influences left but mostly it is more rural people tend to be more alike in this day and age regardless of geography. Outside of the cities, Missouri is about as red a state as Alabama politically.
I think there are some southern influences left but mostly it is more rural people tend to be more alike in this day and age regardless of geography. Outside of the cities, Missouri is about as red a state as Alabama politically.
I have to agree with this. Though, there is a more southern feel in certain areas.
My experience in traveling the state and visiting every county seat and visiting briefly in homes (in gov't. service) was that the culture of the northern half of the state was mostly Midwestern. There was a "backwoods" (for lack of a better word) culture in the deep Ozarks that was mostly similar to the Appalachian region. The southeastern counties, from Cape Girardeau south into the Bootheel resembled the "delta" region of the lower Mississippi Valley. Those influences are Southern. The German heritage areas are found in Perry County and in the lower Missouri River counties (Cole, Osage, Gasconade, Franklin, Warren, Montgomery, and Jefferson) and in west central Missouri in the Cole Camp and Concordia areas. Those places were very German and published newspapers or had church services in German up to WW-I. There is now a growing Amish/Mennonite presence in that general area as well. The lead mining district and the old French colonial settlements have their own cultural mix. I met an old fiddler living in a cabin in Washington County that could still speak some Paw-Paw French. There are French family and place names in that area. Between those regions there is a mixed transition zone that probably varies from household to household. There are no hard and fast lines for any of this.
The fact that Missouri was a slave state carries no real weight in today's culture. Neither does the segregation past. Outlaws like Jesse James or the Daltons or maybe people like Wyatt Earp or trapper John Colter? History? -- yes, but not very relevant in today's culture. The overarching political alignment in Missouri has much more to do with the urban/rural divide than partisan politics.
There are certain places like Lexington and Hannibal that observe/reenact the antebellum southern-ness of their local history or the Mark Twain connection to his "St. Petersburg," but mostly to support some tourism efforts. The cities and suburbs are mostly midwestern. St. Louis and Kansas City received large numbers of southern Blacks during the Great Migration years, which greatly influenced the urban cultures but did not make them Southern.
My experience in traveling the state and visiting every county seat and visiting briefly in homes (in gov't. service) was that the culture of the northern half of the state was mostly Midwestern. There was a "backwoods" (for lack of a better word) culture in the deep Ozarks that was mostly similar to the Appalachian region. The southeastern counties, from Cape Girardeau south into the Bootheel resembled the "delta" region of the lower Mississippi Valley. Those influences are Southern. The German heritage areas are found in Perry County and in the lower Missouri River counties (Cole, Osage, Gasconade, Franklin, Warren, Montgomery, and Jefferson) and in west central Missouri in the Cole Camp and Concordia areas. Those places were very German and published newspapers or had church services in German up to WW-I. There is now a growing Amish/Mennonite presence in that general area as well. The lead mining district and the old French colonial settlements have their own cultural mix. I met an old fiddler living in a cabin in Washington County that could still speak some Paw-Paw French. There are French family and place names in that area. Between those regions there is a mixed transition zone that probably varies from household to household. There are no hard and fast lines for any of this.
The fact that Missouri was a slave state carries no real weight in today's culture. Neither does the segregation past. Outlaws like Jesse James or the Daltons or maybe people like Wyatt Earp or trapper John Colter? History? -- yes, but not very relevant in today's culture. The overarching political alignment in Missouri has much more to do with the urban/rural divide than partisan politics.
There are certain places like Lexington and Hannibal that observe/reenact the antebellum southern-ness of their local history or the Mark Twain connection to his "St. Petersburg," but mostly to support some tourism efforts. The cities and suburbs are mostly midwestern. St. Louis and Kansas City received large numbers of southern Blacks during the Great Migration years, which greatly influenced the urban cultures but did not make them Southern.
The Ozarks are similar to eastern TN and eastern KY in a lot of ways. A lot of the people in eastern TN, KY, NC eventually settled in the Ozarks. That's why even today you see some similarities. During the civil war the Eastern half of TN was pro union, they nearly became another West Virginia but the Confederacy was able to stop it.
The Ozarks during the civil war in AR and MO were pretty split. The further east you went in the Ozarks the more pro confederate. Ripley, Oregon counties were heavily Confederate counties for example.
The Ozarks just north of highway 60 on southwards into Arkansas are southern, but it's like a sub culture that's unique. Maybe call it Southern lite. It's not the deep south kind of southern like MS, or Central AL.
Funny post civil war the population seemed to become more pro confederate.
Also, the blacks in the big cities like St. Louis, Kansas City, even Tulsa OK some came from the Ozarks. There is books on it but after the civil war places like Joplin, Fayetteville AR, Harrison AR, especially Springfield MO the blacks fled in droves and were ran out. Even to this day in Stl I met blacks who stay away from the Ozarks.
My dad was stationed in Ft. Leonard wood back in the 60s. He said there was noticeable Southern influences and blacks were warned about wandering out. Again though that's pretty far south in Missouri and at a time when tensions were still fairly high.
You mentioned further north areas of the state, like the northern half of Little Dixie. I still think there are some traces left, of course due to tourism but also the lack of outside migration it's able to maybe maintain less of an outside influence.
The interesting thing about Missouri is even just outside of the transition zones there is just an underlying feeling to it. Even being in St. Louis county it just feels a tad different than central Ohio. Like I said the historical traces. Even though the people, culture has changed there is still some remnants of it that lingers.
I agree about Urban, rural divide in politics, but the culture matters too. The conservatives in Missouri are much more to the right than Iowa, Nebraska, WI, Ohio, MN etc. Their religious views as well and are teh same as the south.
Another reason with politics is where the political power is centered. The last 25 or so years the political power of Missouri has shifted and southwest and South Central missouri hold a lot of the seats due to district boundaries. Areas of the state that evangelical, and most conservative and culturally southern compared to years past St. Louis held the most power.
Post state level reconstruction up until the early 1960s the rural democrats in Missouri held a lot of power. That then shifted to the urban areas until the late 1990s and now the political power has shifted back to rural Missouri.
Missouri is a unique state. Sorta like Texas too and that Texas also has a chunk that's not southern but heavily western culture influence due to it's large size.
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