Is the ‘Midwesternness’ of Northern Missouri overstated? (St. Louis, Springfield: transplants, how much)

[SoCal Midwest Noobie]

Originally Posted by Doughboy1918

The US Census Bureau has always included Missouri as part of the Midwest. But of course, most people who know the state well, will usually split it into two halves culturally and geographically. One (southern half) being more aligned to the South and Bible Belt, and the other (northern) always to the Heartland/Midwest.

In my view though, if you exclude Kansas City and St. Louis, there’s barely anything Midwestern about the northern half of Missouri either and the whole state should be considered southern on a cultural level, and for a few reasons;

*The land is no less rugged or hilly than further south, as well as Arkansas, and therefor is not suitable for farmland. Rich farmland being an essential characteristic of Midwestern geography of course

*Much of the land situated on the northern banks of the Missouri River and even as far north as Shelby County near Iowa, were historically part of “Little Dixie” in the pre-Civil War era, somewhere settled first by Southerners and thus made into a hotbed for slavery

*Evangelicals dominate much of rural/small town northern Missouri just as much as southern. The Midwest is famous for being plural in this case

So what are your thoughts on this? Do you think all of rural/small town Missouri is southern, including the northern half and that people often overstate how Midwestern the state is or am I missing something here?

In 2014, I took an Amtrak across the country and passed through northern Missouri. Out the train window was an old farmouse, shrouded in fog with a lone Confederate battle flag flying from a flagpole. Id say you have a point.

[MOforthewin]

Originally Posted by jmgg

This is a very interesting analysis. I live in SE South Dakota and travel in Iowa a great deal. The southern 1/4 of Iowa starts having a southern feel to it as it seems like an extension of Missouri. This is especially noticeable in the dialect. DEFININITELY different than the rest of Iowa, the southern 2/3rds of Minnesota, Wisconsin, northern Illinois, northern Nebraska and eastern South Dakota. With the areas I mentioned, I can't tell the difference between the people's mannerisms and dialect.

As areas blend together from opposite directions, people notice the same differences, but in reverse.

Myself, I really don't look at northern Missouri as being too "midwestern". I kind of look at it as the beginning of the south.

You're were just hearing lower midwest dialect there. Not southern! Although lower midwest dialect does have some influences from the south since it borders it. Southern dialect in Missouri doesn't start until about 50 miles from The Arkansas border. North of there in the transition zone you will still hear some drawls mixed in.

[MOforthewin]

Originally Posted by SoCal Midwest Noobie

In 2014, I took an Amtrak across the country and passed through northern Missouri. Out the train window was an old farmouse, shrouded in fog with a lone Confederate battle flag flying from a flagpole. Id say you have a point.

Of course you will see more battle flags in Missouri than Iowa or MN. It was represented by both the union and Confederacy. Missouri's history is totally different than the upper midwest. MO is a partially southern state this is to be expected.

[jmgg]

Originally Posted by MOforthewin

You're were just hearing lower midwest dialect there. Not southern! Although lower midwest dialect does have some influences from the south since it borders it. Southern dialect in Missouri doesn't start until about 50 miles from The Arkansas border. North of there in the transition zone you will still hear some drawls mixed in.

Not sure what to call it, but it's not a dialect I'd say is midwestern, but everyone has a different definition to certain things. There's a kind of drawl to it. My son lived in Shenandoah, Iowa for several years and everyone talked this way. When I'm outside of Kansas City, the people seem to talk the same as lower Iowa. What's funny to me as someone who goes to Kansas City every few years, is that WITHIN Kansas City, the dialect is more like where I'm from.

Just my observations. Nothing scientific here.

[rrampage]

Originally Posted by MOforthewin

Agree!!

Only difference is over time Missouri retained much much more of it's southern influence than Maryland. MD just has bits of the eastern shore still southern, while Missouri still has the southern quarter of the state in Dixie and a good chunk also in the transition zone still. MO as a whole has retained much more of it's history.

The St. Louis area certainly didn't retain much southern influence. It's as if that area doesn't even belong in MO. You've got the northern cities influence there. And, you do have the northern cities accent that has influenced parts of the I-55 corridor from Chicagoland to St. Louis. It's an interesting deal really.

If anything, Missouri's southern influence gets overstated, on the whole. Most of the population lives in a Midwest-influenced culture.

[SunGrins]

There is a rural Missouri dialect that people can mistake for southern. I had two bosses at two different times. One was from Caruthersville in the Missouri Bootheel. She spoke Southern as if she was from Mississippi. My other boss was from Moneteau County just south of the Missouri River in Central Missouri. He spoke a very genteel version of Missouruh rural. There was a little bit of Harry Truman in his speech patterns but nothing Southern. There is a mild (Missouri/Mississippi) river valley accent that might account for some of the confusion. I think that someone from a northern state would think a Missouri rural accent as southern. I had an aunt from Butler and Dunklin Counties, and I swan, she had a strong Southern accent.

Harry Truman was from Lamar (Barton Co.) over by the Kansas border and moved to Independence in Jackson County. Barton Co. is solid Bible Belt and prairie farms for the most part, not Ozark. I would not call Truman's accent Southern, but some might. It had a little Kansas nasal twang.

For some reason, I can pick out a Kansas City accent from women but not men. Raised in St. Louis, we all knew absolutely that there was no accent in our speech - pure American English. Once I moved away, I can pick it out like a sore thumb -- but again, it is the women who give it away most often. It sounds to me a little like a Chicago accent. I've lived in New Mexico now for ten years and the local accent is very different, so it is a treat to hear a familiar Missouri accent.

[rrampage]

Originally Posted by SunGrins

There is a rural Missouri dialect that people can mistake for southern. I had two bosses at two different times. One was from Caruthersville in the Missouri Bootheel. She spoke Southern as if she was from Mississippi. My other boss was from Moneteau County just south of the Missouri River in Central Missouri. He spoke a very genteel version of Missouruh rural. There was a little bit of Harry Truman in his speech patterns but nothing Southern. There is a mild (Missouri/Mississippi) river valley accent that might account for some of the confusion. I think that someone from a northern state would think a Missouri rural accent as southern. I had an aunt from Butler and Dunklin Counties, and I swan, she had a strong Southern accent.

Harry Truman was from Lamar (Barton Co.) over by the Kansas border and moved to Independence in Jackson County. Barton Co. is solid Bible Belt and prairie farms for the most part, not Ozark. I would not call Truman's accent Southern, but some might. It had a little Kansas nasal twang.

For some reason, I can pick out a Kansas City accent from women but not men. Raised in St. Louis, we all knew absolutely that there was no accent in our speech - pure American English. Once I moved away, I can pick it out like a sore thumb -- but again, it is the women who give it away most often. It sounds to me a little like a Chicago accent. I've lived in New Mexico now for ten years and the local accent is very different, so it is a treat to hear a familiar Missouri accent.

The northern Midlands and southern Midlands accents are common in many areas (outside of metro St. Louis). Areas like Sikeston and Dexter have a southern accent present that definitely has seen influence from Northeast Arkansas.

I notice many speakers from K.C. have a very Midlands accent. It seems to be a cross of southern Midlands and northern Midlands accent. Very subtle though for most speakers.

[eddie gein]

Originally Posted by jmgg

Not sure what to call it, but it's not a dialect I'd say is midwestern, but everyone has a different definition to certain things. There's a kind of drawl to it. My son lived in Shenandoah, Iowa for several years and everyone talked this way. When I'm outside of Kansas City, the people seem to talk the same as lower Iowa. What's funny to me as someone who goes to Kansas City every few years, is that WITHIN Kansas City, the dialect is more like where I'm from.

Just my observations. Nothing scientific here.

I don't care what some fella from South Dakota says about northern Missouri. It's been nothin' but a bunch of Yankees since they killed Bloody Bill and Jessie, Billy Quantrill and them Younger boys.

Seriously though, I think maybe northern Mo is influenced by which direction you are perceiving it from. As an Oklahoman I would probably hear a bit more of a northern accent. Conversely, somebody from north of the area would hear some southern come through.

But it's really weird. Moved out west for a while and I could hear people's Okie accent when I came back to Oklahoma to visit. Then I moved to north Florida where it is very southern. I could no longer hear the Okie accent when I visited because the southern accent was so much stronger.

To this day though somebody like Reba McIntyre sounds horribly southern and hickish to me even by Oklahoma standards. But living in OK again I don't hear the typical accent as well.

[rrampage]

Originally Posted by eddie gein

I don't care what some fella from South Dakota says about northern Missouri. It's been nothin' but a bunch of Yankees since they killed Bloody Bill and Jessie, Billy Quantrill and them Younger boys.

Seriously though, I think maybe northern Mo is influenced by which direction you are perceiving it from. As an Oklahoman I would probably hear a bit more of a northern accent. Conversely, somebody from north of the area would hear some southern come through.

But it's really weird. Moved out west for a while and I could hear people's Okie accent when I came back to Oklahoma to visit. Then I moved to north Florida where it is very southern. I could no longer hear the Okie accent when I visited because the southern accent was so much stronger.

To this day though somebody like Reba McIntyre sounds horribly southern and hickish to me even by Oklahoma standards. But living in OK again I don't hear the typical accent as well.

Growing up in Chicagoland, we considered people who lived south of an east-west line from just below Kankakee (with the Northern Midlands accents) to have southern accents. It was basically where the south began to us.

Direction perception means a lot. You are right about that.

A lot of Oklahoma accents seem quite subtle to me.

[Doughboy1918]

Originally Posted by rrampage

Growing up in Chicagoland, we considered people who lived south of an east-west line from just below Kankakee (with the Northern Midlands accents) to have southern accents. It was basically where the south began to us.

Out of curiosity, what kind of accent do people in the southwestern Chicago suburbs such as Joliet and Aurora speak with? Is it typical of Inland Northern/Great Lakes with the distinctive flat A sound and where block sounds like black, or is it closer to General American/Midlands? I just wondered because this region seems kind of different from the rest of Chicagoland due to it having so many interstates and highways running through it.