Is the ‘Midwesternness’ of Northern Missouri overstated? (Kansas City, St. Louis: living in, bill)
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This winter lasted a bit too long for me.
It still gets chilly at night and in the early morning.
Thankfully, we seem to be out of winter now, at least until November!
The area of the Midwest lake country that I'm most familiar with is Vilas County, WI by the UP of Michigan. They can commonly receive snowfall anytime between October through May with a frost free season of around two months. That county has around 1,000 naturally occurring lakes.
Why is it Lutherans in Missouri are generally very conservative for example, but the Lutheran church up in MN is VERY liberal. Is it due to Missouri being much more conservative culturally while MN is an upper midwestern state?
Interesting about Shannon County. I think that explains a lot of the Ozarks in the civil war in Southern Missouri and Northern Arkansas. They really wanted to be left alone.
It seems post civil war though the Ozarks became more pro Confederate. Support the South versus the north. Today, the Ozarks are anti big government.
The Missouri Synod Luterans immigrated because they were too conservative to tolerate the Prussian plan to amalgamate the German protestant churches under a single German Reformed denomination. That was much too drastic for the "Old Lutherans" in Saxony and some other areas. There are different strains of Lutherans and the Missouri Synod is not even the most conservative. I am LCMS and a friend that I knew from church moved away to a different town. He would ask what was new at church and my answer was "Nothing new since about 1580 (The Book of Concord)". That is about right for the LCMS. Missouri's conservatism might be influenced by the LCMS rather than the other way around.
I don't think there is any great enthusiasm in the Ozarks for the dead Confederacy, per se -- more of a libertarian mindset that still wants to be left alone. The actual Confederacy is too abstract and symbolic. I actually think that that libertarianism is the prevailing attitude which is now manifested (by default) in some Republican party membership.
Missouri escaped reconstruction since it did not secede, but the Radical Republicans gained control of the state and there was a period of harsh retribution and deliberate abuse of those suspected of being pro-Confederacy. That would have turned a lot of attitudes against the victorious North and (Grant's) Radical Republicans in power. There was no Democrat elected Governor until 1872. The Democrats held power until one GOP term in 1908 and then again until the 1920s.
Regarding Camden County -- The Lake of the Ozarks is mostly occupied by retired or wealthy folks from St. Louis or Kansas City or from some northern Midwestern states. That might not be their voting district or their full-time residence. It might lean a tiny bit Southern on weekdays and then Midwestern on weekends and holidays.
Bagnall dam (hydroelectric) was completed in 1931 and flooded out many of the small towns and farms along the Osage and Niangua Rivers. The lake has become a major resort destination for Midwesterners. Since it is not a Corps of Engineer's lake, there is lakeside residential and commercial property along much of the shoreline.
St. Louis many say has more east coast feel to it. I think Baltimore and Cincinatti are good cities to compare it too. Baltimore in many ways too because both were considered border cities. Modern times both similar demographics except the surrounding areas of a lot more right wing than the Baltimore area. Even St. Louis county is more moderate in politics than around Baltimore.
Historically they could be siblings Baltimore and Stl. Stl has more in common with Cinci and Baltimore than Detoilet or Chicago. Being on the edges of the lower midwest also gives Stl a far different feel than Detroit and Chicago.
Nah, having lived there, much more similar to Chicago/Detroit combined with Indy. Accents, cultures have similarities. I am originally from the Chicagoland area. It's one of those anomalies of geography.
The Missouri Synod Luterans immigrated because they were too conservative to tolerate the Prussian plan to amalgamate the German protestant churches under a single German Reformed denomination. That was much too drastic for the "Old Lutherans" in Saxony and some other areas. There are different strains of Lutherans and the Missouri Synod is not even the most conservative. I am LCMS and a friend that I knew from church moved away to a different town. He would ask what was new at church and my answer was "Nothing new since about 1580 (The Book of Concord)". That is about right for the LCMS. Missouri's conservatism might be influenced by the LCMS rather than the other way around.
I don't think there is any great enthusiasm in the Ozarks for the dead Confederacy, per se -- more of a libertarian mindset that still wants to be left alone. The actual Confederacy is too abstract and symbolic. I actually think that that libertarianism is the prevailing attitude which is now manifested (by default) in some Republican party membership.
Missouri escaped reconstruction since it did not secede, but the Radical Republicans gained control of the state and there was a period of harsh retribution and deliberate abuse of those suspected of being pro-Confederacy. That would have turned a lot of attitudes against the victorious North and (Grant's) Radical Republicans in power. There was no Democrat elected Governor until 1872. The Democrats held power until one GOP term in 1908 and then again until the 1920s.
Regarding Camden County -- The Lake of the Ozarks is mostly occupied by retired or wealthy folks from St. Louis or Kansas City or from some northern Midwestern states. That might not be their voting district or their full-time residence. It might lean a tiny bit Southern on weekdays and then Midwestern on weekends and holidays.
Bagnall dam (hydroelectric) was completed in 1931 and flooded out many of the small towns and farms along the Osage and Niangua Rivers. The lake has become a major resort destination for Midwesterners. Since it is not a Corps of Engineer's lake, there is lakeside residential and commercial property along much of the shoreline.
Technically Missouri had reconstruction at the state level after the civil war. Radical Republicans controlled it but the southern democrats in Missouri got back into power and made a new constitution.
You know, regarding conceal carry, actually that goes back to Jim Crow. The southern democrats in Missouri outlawed it after the civil war and put vague wording in the constitution regarding it. That's why Southern states including MO took longer to pass pro gun laws compared to western states. Liek the permit to purchase a handgun was a Jim Crow law. Blacks couldnt buy handguns. States like North Carolina had the same law too! North Carolina just repealed the stupid permit to purchase this year.
Most anti gun laws were actually Jim Crow laws in the south. Were not repealed until the 1990s and 2000s. That's why the border states and the south had wonky gun laws.
Kentucky, Missouri, and Arkansas post civil war voted democrat. However these 3 states would still elect Republicans from time to time. Especially Kentucky and Missouri. A lot of Kentucky Republicans also voted for the civil rights act.
St. Louis many say has more east coast feel to it. I think Baltimore and Cincinatti are good cities to compare it too. Baltimore in many ways too because both were considered border cities. Modern times both similar demographics except the surrounding areas of a lot more right wing than the Baltimore area. Even St. Louis county is more moderate in politics than around Baltimore.
Historically they could be siblings Baltimore and Stl. Stl has more in common with Cinci and Baltimore than Detoilet or Chicago. Being on the edges of the lower midwest also gives Stl a far different feel than Detroit and Chicago.
Missouri and Arkansas are states that are almost fully in a transition zone. Missouri is the most "Southern" Midwestern state and Arkansas is the most "Midwestern" Southern state.
To an extent maybe so. Actually, I would consider Kentucky to be the most midwestern southern state. The areas bordering the Cinci and Ohio areas are mostly midwestern, not southern.
Arkansas, the locations it borders, Missouri are the parts of Missouri that are in the south, and are Dixie.
When you cross from Arkansas into Missouri it doesn't just become mostly midwestern like in Ohio. It's still in the south. In missouri when you get about within 50 miles of Arkansas it's southern. MO is the only midwestern state that has a good chunk of it in the south.
Now you can make the argument for Northwest arkansas and Southwest Missouri having a great plains influence in places like Joplin, Fayetteville, even Springfield due to these places bordering northeastern OK and are only about 50 miles from Kansas.
Historically they could be siblings Baltimore and Stl. Stl has more in common with Cinci and Baltimore than Detoilet or Chicago. Being on the edges of the lower midwest also gives Stl a far different feel than Detroit and Chicago.
I think that you could almost kidnap a St Louis native and drop them into an old Baltimore neighborhood and they might not realize they were not in St. Louis (until someone speaks to them). Baltimore invested heavily in row houses -- more than St. Louis -- but there are different brick residential styles (single or multifamily) that are common in both cities. St. Louis might have lost most of its row houses from Mill Creek or other "revitalization" efforts. Both are brick cities from the early days. Both were port cities, although St. Louis is a river port. Both were Border State cities. Both became their own separate county (a dubious decision in St. Louis's case). I don't think the similarities are as strong with Chicago or Detroit.
I think that you could almost kidnap a St Louis native and drop them into an old Baltimore neighborhood and they might not realize they were not in St. Louis (until someone speaks to them). Baltimore invested heavily in row houses -- more than St. Louis -- but there are different brick residential styles (single or multifamily) that are common in both cities. St. Louis might have lost most of its row houses from Mill Creek or other "revitalization" efforts. Both are brick cities from the early days. Both were port cities, although St. Louis is a river port. Both were Border State cities. Both became their own separate county (a dubious decision in St. Louis's case). I don't think the similarities are as strong with Chicago or Detroit.
Agree!!
Only difference is over time Missouri retained much much more of it's southern influence than Maryland. MD just has bits of the eastern shore still southern, while Missouri still has the southern quarter of the state in Dixie and a good chunk also in the transition zone still. MO as a whole has retained much more of it's history.
Not overstated in my opinion.
Northern Missouri is nothing but farmland, so I don’t understand that one. Besides, no one disputes that the Northwoods and the UP aren’t in the midwest just because it’s not farmland.
Kansas City and St. Louis are where a huge chunk of the population lives. Removing them drastically changes what Missouri is.
I’ve lived in 4 undoubtedly southern states as well as Missouri and while some parts of Missouri might have some southern influence, it’s not actually southern. When I lived in Arkansas, Springfield seemed like it might as well be in Iowa because it was so different. Of course I know it’s a good bit different than Iowa, but that just illustrates how different Springfield felt to where I was coming from.
This is a very interesting analysis. I live in SE South Dakota and travel in Iowa a great deal. The southern 1/4 of Iowa starts having a southern feel to it as it seems like an extension of Missouri. This is especially noticeable in the dialect. DEFININITELY different than the rest of Iowa, the southern 2/3rds of Minnesota, Wisconsin, northern Illinois, northern Nebraska and eastern South Dakota. With the areas I mentioned, I can't tell the difference between the people's mannerisms and dialect.
As areas blend together from opposite directions, people notice the same differences, but in reverse.
Myself, I really don't look at northern Missouri as being too "midwestern". I kind of look at it as the beginning of the south.
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