Is the ‘Midwesternness’ of Northern Missouri overstated? (St. Louis, Springfield: home, public school)

[MOforthewin]

Originally Posted by rrampage

I have to agree with this. Though, there is a more southern feel in certain areas.

True. Even north of the MO river you will still find pockets of some influences depending on history and ancestry of each town.

It's still totally different than the heart of the Midwest like MN. About 50 percent of Missouri is midwestern, and the other 50 is either transition zone or southern. Ohio, IN, IL were not slave states, were not admitted to the Confederate congress and also dont have any sections of their state actually located in the south.

If you took Dixie Outfitters in Branson and placed it in the middle of Iowa or Nebraska it would stick out like a sore thumb.

[MOforthewin]

Originally Posted by rrampage

I'd move the green up on the map in Southeastern MO and Southern IL by about 50 miles and I'd exclude Carbondale, IL from it.

That's too far north in far eastern MO. I'd do it 15 miles to include Jackson Missouri, and maybe 20 miles north a little west of there to just south of Farmington. Madison county Missouri feels pretty southern, from an Ozarks kind of Southern.

The cutoff in far eastern Missouri is VERY sharp. There is no transition zone. gets pretty much southern around Jackson. Not like central Missouri where it's a gradual transition zone as you go south.

[rrampage]

Originally Posted by MOforthewin

That's too far north in far eastern MO. I'd do it 15 miles to include Jackson Missouri, and maybe 20 miles north a little west of there to just south of Farmington. Madison county Missouri feels pretty southern, from an Ozarks kind of Southern.

The cutoff in far eastern Missouri is VERY sharp. There is no transition zone. gets pretty much southern around Jackson. Not like central Missouri where it's a gradual transition zone as you go south.

I'm originally from the Chicagoland area, so I am probably going to have a different view than you, naturally.

[sub]

Originally Posted by MOforthewin

The Ozarks are similar to eastern TN and eastern KY in a lot of ways. A lot of the people in eastern TN, KY, NC eventually settled in the Ozarks. That's why even today you see some similarities. During the civil war the Eastern half of TN was pro union, they nearly became another West Virginia but the Confederacy was able to stop it.

The Ozarks during the civil war in AR and MO were pretty split. The further east you went in the Ozarks the more pro confederate. Ripley, Oregon counties were heavily Confederate counties for example.


The Ozarks just north of highway 60 on southwards into Arkansas are southern, but it's like a sub culture that's unique. Maybe call it Southern lite. It's not the deep south kind of southern like MS, or Central AL.

Funny post civil war the population seemed to become more pro confederate.

Also, the blacks in the big cities like St. Louis, Kansas City, even Tulsa OK some came from the Ozarks. There is books on it but after the civil war places like Joplin, Fayetteville AR, Harrison AR, especially Springfield MO the blacks fled in droves and were ran out. Even to this day in Stl I met blacks who stay away from the Ozarks.

My dad was stationed in Ft. Leonard wood back in the 60s. He said there was noticeable Southern influences and blacks were warned about wandering out. Again though that's pretty far south in Missouri and at a time when tensions were still fairly high.

You mentioned further north areas of the state, like the northern half of Little Dixie. I still think there are some traces left, of course due to tourism but also the lack of outside migration it's able to maybe maintain less of an outside influence.

The interesting thing about Missouri is even just outside of the transition zones there is just an underlying feeling to it. Even being in St. Louis county it just feels a tad different than central Ohio. Like I said the historical traces. Even though the people, culture has changed there is still some remnants of it that lingers.

I agree about Urban, rural divide in politics, but the culture matters too. The conservatives in Missouri are much more to the right than Iowa, Nebraska, WI, Ohio, MN etc. Their religious views as well and are teh same as the south.

Another reason with politics is where the political power is centered. The last 25 or so years the political power of Missouri has shifted and southwest and South Central missouri hold a lot of the seats due to district boundaries. Areas of the state that evangelical, and most conservative and culturally southern compared to years past St. Louis held the most power.

Post state level reconstruction up until the early 1960s the rural democrats in Missouri held a lot of power. That then shifted to the urban areas until the late 1990s and now the political power has shifted back to rural Missouri.

Missouri is a unique state. Sorta like Texas too and that Texas also has a chunk that's not southern but heavily western culture influence due to it's large size.

The circumstances surrounding the black population in Missouri doesn’t necessarily mean much in terms of being southern.
Kentucky might be the closest southern comparison to Missouri, but when I lived in southern MO and visited Kentucky, the latter definitely struck me as being more southern across the board.
Here in the upper midwest, black people don’t really venture up to the northwoods either, nor do they live in small towns or the countryside to any great degree.
That’s not the case down south, where the population is much more widespread. These days, the south is also much more integrated than the midwest.

[SkyLark2019]

My information is through friends, so......

I'd characterize Missouri as more Southern.

People from Missouri can be incredibly polite (as opposed to the standard Midwestern "reserved" behavior in public)

FWIW I have never met an entitled behaving Missourian in my lifetime. The state culture is very blue collar, in a positive way.

[GraniteStater]

Missouri is the Upper South/Lower Midwest in culture overall. St. Louis continues its stagnation and decline, and the southwest area of the state is a faster growing area and more southern with the politicians to go along with that. Missouri has nothing in common with most of the Midwest that is located along I-80 northward.

[rrampage]

Originally Posted by GraniteStater

Missouri is the Upper South/Lower Midwest in culture overall. St. Louis continues its stagnation and decline, and the southwest area of the state is a faster growing area and more southern with the politicians to go along with that. Missouri has nothing in common with most of the Midwest that is located along I-80 northward.

The St. Louis area definitely has influence from I-80 northward. More of a northern feel in the area with the accents and culture. Feels like sort of a mix of Chicago/Detroit light combined with Indianapolis. This area sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the rest of the state, in my opinion.

[SnazzyB]

Originally Posted by SkyLark2019

My information is through friends, so......

I'd characterize Missouri as more Southern.

People from Missouri can be incredibly polite (as opposed to the standard Midwestern "reserved" behavior in public)

FWIW I have never met an entitled behaving Missourian in my lifetime. The state culture is very blue collar, in a positive way.

We are a state of "Friendly Bobs". LOL

I have a friend whose husband works for the St. Louis Regionial Commerce and Growth Association. Back a few years ago, St. Louis hosted the NCAA event, in 2014 (I think) My friend's husband volunteered to spend most of his weekend being a 'friendly Bob', directing tourists in downtown St. Louis, on how to get around, where this was, and where that was, and so on and so forth.

He said SOOOO many people commented to him how friendly and helpful EVERYONE had been to them, and they were surprised.

Now...I'm not the biggest traveler in the world...so my level of expertise on friendly people is somewhat limited...but when I visited San Diego, I was very pleasantly surprised at the level of friendliness I encountered. One time, I stopped at a bakery for a cup of coffee and a scone, and then took my stuff to an outdoor cafe table and chair. I ate and drank my stuff, and people watched. The owner of the bakery came outside and chatted with me for about 10 minutes, just being friendly and shooting the breeze, asking where I was from, how did I like his city, etc. I thought that was really nice.

[Doughboy1918]

Originally Posted by GraniteStater

Missouri is the Upper South/Lower Midwest in culture overall. St. Louis continues its stagnation and decline, and the southwest area of the state is a faster growing area and more southern with the politicians to go along with that. Missouri has nothing in common with most of the Midwest that is located along I-80 northward.

Despite what I’m saying here, I don’t believe I-80 is the barrier between Upper South and the ‘true’ Midwest. To me, anywhere in Illinois and Kansas (e.g. Topeka, KS, Belleville, IL) on the same latitude as somewhere in northern Missouri is Midwestern. Northern Missouri is just an outlier in this case and for the reasons I laid out. I also don’t think Southeast Iowa is truly Midwestern either for some of the same reasons.

[Spider-Kev]

I live in Camden County, what would you classify where I am at as?
I'm new here so I can't rightly tell what you all would think of it.