Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-24-2024, 11:58 AM
 
1,000 posts, read 1,071,244 times
Reputation: 1542

Advertisements

I've though long and hard about the generational evolution of "spoken language" and I've come up with that following quote:




Spoken Language is nothing more than the vehicle to get from one generation to the next.



This is evident across multiple pockets across the United States and those families that purposely block the organic transfer of the dominant language, for generation to generation, are only putting future generations at a huge disadvantage linguistically and professionally speaking

Let me give a few examples.

A huge portion of the United States used to be French:





Obviously, they spoke French with Louisiana holding the most dominant position.

Almost all of the ancestors of these French immigrants slowly evolved and learned the dominant language of their region, English, but there are still pockets in Louisiana where the speak their versions of a bastardized version of French passed down form generation to generation. You can imagine how well these 8th, 9th, 10th? generation Americans are doing, socially, without a full grasp of the English language.

Another example is Italian spoken in the Northeast. This one is a trick question because the Southern Italians NEVER really spoke high Italian. High Italian was Italy's attempt at unifying their dozens of dialects and Italian= The Tuscan dialect.

The Southern Italians that flooded into places like New York City were NOT educated Tuscan speaking Italians- NO!



They arrived speaking THEIR local dialect of Sicilian, Calabrese, Neoplitan, etc. but NOT ITALIAN


it was MUCH EASIER for these parents to encourage their children to learn English instead of a language they never fully spoken, Italian. English was the vehicle to get from one generation to the next. Now..the English they speak is their best attempt at transferring the English, from generation to generation. This leads to accents and some carry over of their previous generation's spoken language.

Now what about English..Yes! even the form of English we speak TODAY is drastically different than how it was spoken in the 1600s. the 1700s, the 1800s and the various eras in the 1900s. Both our words, cadence, sayings and slogans are different. This is true even in England. Someone from London today would have difficulty speaking to a Shakespeare era Londoner..the language was merely a vehicle to get from Generation to generation and thus it evolved each generation.

I found an interesting video on the English that immigrated to the Southern Colonies and within a generation, or two, their spoken language transitioned from "English" to "American English"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNqY6ftqGq0


Now...that brings us to the huge Spanish speaking pockets and probably the best comparison is German.

Believe it or not, but German was once the primary, or secondary language of a sizable portion of America. It was so prevalent that there was even consideration of making German our official language.

Well, that didn't happen and the two World Wars led to families passing on American English to their future generations.

Back to Spanish..we will have to see how this is passed on but it could be one of three outcomes.

Outcome 1- Current generation allows the vehicle of English to future generations allowing them to have the highest opportunity to speak the dominant language in their country. Spanish is slowly phased out as with the Italians, Germans, etc.

Outcome 2- Spanish speaking parents speak Spanish at home 100% of the time and Reject the dominant language vehicle idea instead assuming their children will "pick up " English in school or through friends. Often time, this significantly handicaps the current generation because they have neither an upper level grasp of either language since the version of Spanish their parents speak is often times not high Spanish either. These linguistical handicapped generations are often left to work in the service industry OR work in pockets of like minded individuals who also reject the English vehicle notion ( I.e. Miami)

Outcome 3- Spanish speaking parents stress that English is the language to pass down form generation but they allow Spanish to remain as a secondary English but NEVER at the expense of being a high quality English speaker because their parents know that is a necessary ingredient for economic and social success in a country where English in the dominant language in academia and in the business/professional world.

And honestly, I do not know enough about the variation of Spanish among Mexico and the South American countries to know how far they've drifted from the Spanish language spoken in Spain.

I imagine it's drifted quite far a away in the 500+ years since Colombo landed ashore.

Last edited by H'ton; 04-24-2024 at 12:09 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-24-2024, 12:18 PM
 
63,141 posts, read 29,316,816 times
Reputation: 18680
Unless you are speaking of parents or families being here illegally who speak Spanish your post might be fit better in another forum. However, IMO "immigrants" should learn and speak English out in mainstream out of respect for our nation's identifying language. What language they choose to speak at home is up to them. One thing to remember though the more you speak a language the more proficient you get at it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2024, 06:34 PM
 
296 posts, read 569,047 times
Reputation: 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Unless you are speaking of parents or families being here illegally who speak Spanish your post might be fit better in another forum. However, IMO "immigrants" should learn and speak English out in mainstream out of respect for our nation's identifying language. What language they choose to speak at home is up to them. One thing to remember though the more you speak a language the more proficient you get at it.
The 'identifying language' in a lot of the United States is Spanish - Spanish was there a lot longer than US rule and spoken English was. If you invade Mexico and take a big chunk of their northern territories then you inherit the Spanish language.

Do you care about Puerto Ricans living in Puerto Rico not speaking English? No you don't because you don't want to live there. Again, the US annexed Puerto Rico when they had no need to so you get more Spanish speakers being able to move to the mainland and thus boost the Spanish speaking population.

Do you need to speak English to live in El Paso, Miami or any of those places? Not really, Spanish will be fine for the most part - Spanish has been there a lot longer than English as have Spanish speaking populations.

Do you need English if you want to live in Seattle? Or Hartford, Connecticut? Probably a good idea.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2024, 06:36 PM
 
296 posts, read 569,047 times
Reputation: 301
In 100 years from now, Spanish will be language of the majority of the people in the US. You're going to have to get used to this idea, by 2060 - one in three people in the US will be Hispanic which is 36 years from now.

They're not coming from Europe in numbers any more.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2024, 08:07 PM
 
63,141 posts, read 29,316,816 times
Reputation: 18680
Spanish could only become dominant in this country via a continued massive illegal immigration from south of our border where they outnumber English speaking Americans. Ain't gonna happen though! I wonder how Mexicans would feel if there was a massive illegal invasion by English or other non-Spanish speaking aliens into their country and changed their language and culture to something else? Wouldn't like it if the shoe was on the other foot, would they? Nothing but hypocricy on their part!

English is taught in our schools not Spanish unless it's an elective course and it will continue to be so. One can salivate all they want over that changing but it won't! English is the business language of the world and all of our government documents including the Constitution is in English.

We keep being told that Hispanics are assimilating linguistically into our society.. I guess that's all lies?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2024, 09:05 PM
 
Location: The High Desert
16,157 posts, read 10,844,061 times
Reputation: 31670
In places where Spanish is spoken at home or in private conversations in public spaces, or in businesses where the customers know they can speak either English or Spanish, I think that a mild version of OP's option 3 will likely be the path most people will take. English is spoken in school so younger family members will be bi-lingual. They will translate for their elders in situations where no one speaks Spanish. There are reasons why the family elders will not be able to learn English (illiteracy, hearing loss, age, etc.).

If someone speaking only Spanish wants to make a contract or buy a house or get a job, they are at a disadvantage. Their bi-lingual kids will not be in the same situation and their parents would not want them to be.

Furthermore, being bi-lingual is an advantage for several reasons. Languages are a tool for expressing concepts in the context of that language. How often have you heard someone say that there isn't an English word that expresses a certain concept. That is why we borrow some words or phrases from other languages.

My state and community are mostly Hispanic, but many multi-generation Hispanic people cannot speak Spanish or are not fluent in it. I'm not Hispanic but I can speak some Spanish. I can get by sometimes while on vacation (Peru, Dominican Republic, Spain) but only barely. The situation would be comparable to that of a newly arrived Spanish speaker in the US.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-18-2024, 09:56 PM
 
296 posts, read 569,047 times
Reputation: 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Spanish could only become dominant in this country via a continued massive illegal immigration from south of our border where they outnumber English speaking Americans. Ain't gonna happen though! I wonder how Mexicans would feel if there was a massive illegal invasion by English or other non-Spanish speaking aliens into their country and changed their language and culture to something else? Wouldn't like it if the shoe was on the other foot, would they? Nothing but hypocricy on their part!
Two million Americans live in Mexico, mostly retired, mostly illegal, they don't seem to care.

There are big English speaking communities of US expats in Colombia, Ecuador, Panama and Costa Rica - no-one cares.

Quote:
English is taught in our schools not Spanish unless it's an elective course and it will continue to be so. One can salivate all they want over that changing but it won't! English is the business language of the world and all of our government documents including the Constitution is in English.
One in three Americans will be Hispanic by 2060

Quote:
We keep being told that Hispanics are assimilating linguistically into our society.. I guess that's all lies?
Spanish has always been a part of what is now the southern part of the mainland US, you seem to want to culturally cleanse what you don't like - not going to happen, is it?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 06:44 AM
 
63,141 posts, read 29,316,816 times
Reputation: 18680
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunGrins View Post
In places where Spanish is spoken at home or in private conversations in public spaces, or in businesses where the customers know they can speak either English or Spanish, I think that a mild version of OP's option 3 will likely be the path most people will take. English is spoken in school so younger family members will be bi-lingual. They will translate for their elders in situations where no one speaks Spanish. There are reasons why the family elders will not be able to learn English (illiteracy, hearing loss, age, etc.).

If someone speaking only Spanish wants to make a contract or buy a house or get a job, they are at a disadvantage. Their bi-lingual kids will not be in the same situation and their parents would not want them to be.

Furthermore, being bi-lingual is an advantage for several reasons. Languages are a tool for expressing concepts in the context of that language. How often have you heard someone say that there isn't an English word that expresses a certain concept. That is why we borrow some words or phrases from other languages.

My state and community are mostly Hispanic, but many multi-generation Hispanic people cannot speak Spanish or are not fluent in it. I'm not Hispanic but I can speak some Spanish. I can get by sometimes while on vacation (Peru, Dominican Republic, Spain) but only barely. The situation would be comparable to that of a newly arrived Spanish speaker in the US.
The claim is that Spanish will be spoken as the primary language by the majority in this country in 100 years. That is simply not true unless this illegal invasion of Spanish speakers continues unabated but it's not going to. I also gave other reasons why the above is not going to happen. So salivating over that possibility is laughable.

Being bi-lingual is only an advantage if one works in the tourist industry or deals in business with foreigners abroad. However, even at that the language of business is English. Nothing wrong with being bi-lingual but English will still prevail in this country as our national de facto language and will be the most widely spoken just as it is today in the future.

So then you admit that many Hispanics are not assimilating linguistically into our country just as I have said but they are mostly the elderly and illegal aliens. The elderly will die out and this illegal invasion is going to be curbed so salivating over Spanish over taking English in this country is only a pipe dream by the pro-illegals and ethnocentrics.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 06:56 AM
 
3,386 posts, read 1,466,673 times
Reputation: 3811
It is always worth checking in on this forum from time to time. It is so patently obvious that the concerns expressed over “illegal immigration” are really nothing more than xenophobia, bigotry, and racism. The language and sentiments expressed make it clear that many posters here don’t just oppose illegal immigration—- they oppose all immigration, but especially immigration of people who are “not like them”. Let the denials and deflections begin.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 07:04 AM
 
296 posts, read 569,047 times
Reputation: 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
The claim is that Spanish will be spoken as the primary language by the majority in this country in 100 years.
That's right - just check the change of demographics out for the last 50 years - it probably won't take 100 years.

Quote:
That is simply not true unless this illegal invasion of Spanish speakers continues unabated but it's not going to. I also gave other reasons why the above is not going to happen. So salivating over that possibility is laughable.
What's going to stop it? Immigration from the UK and Ireland? Nope, that ship has sailed (literally...)

Quote:
Being bi-lingual is only an advantage if one works in the tourist industry or deals in business with foreigners abroad. However, even at that the language of business is English. Nothing wrong with being bi-lingual but English will still prevail in this country as our national de facto language and will be the most widely spoken just as it is today in the future.
Spoken like a true monolingual.

Quote:
So then you admit that many Hispanics are not assimilating linguistically into our country just as I have said but they are mostly the elderly and illegal aliens. The elderly will die out and this illegal invasion is going to be curbed so salivating over Spanish over taking English in this country is only a pipe dream by the pro-illegals and ethnocentrics.
It's not going to be 'curbed' how?

https://www.goarmy.com/espanol.html

They recruit for the US Army in Spanish! That never used to happen, why is it happening now? Because it is a massive pool of talent that the US Army needs within its ranks. By 2060 - there will be 110 million Spanish speakers in the US - if you look at the rate of Spanish speakers multiplying by the decade - in 100 years, the US will have a majority Spanish speaking population.

How do you feel about your future descendants being Latino and Spanish speaking because the chances are your great great grandchildren will be exactly that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top