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long arms are a home defense weapon but should only be used when stationary from a fixed position .
they are like artillery.
they are not for being mobile inside a house , a handgun is best for that and one that requires no safety to remember , can’t jam and is easily concealed if need be like in my situation.
brandishing is a crime if you pull a gun on someone for what turns out no reason .
so the ability to use it from within a pocket is priceless which is why ayoob highly recommends a hammer less 640 for civilians who fall under different rules then law enforcement and need to be discrete yet protected .
i think someone who goes long arm only, is asking for trouble if they are on the move .they have to many disadvantages for that in confined spaces for the untrained
but like everything else in life there are opinions all over the map and nothing is cookie cutter for all.
we have to weigh the pros and cons of our own situation, needs and training level but not only ours if there is a spouse..
is your spouse going to remember to take a safety off in a moment of sheer terror , is a spouse going to be able to retain control of a long arm in a confined space if she has to check out something . will she limp wrist a semi auto and have it jam?
so simplicity can be very very important
Can you provide any link to anywhere that Ayoob has recommended a snub nosed as a primary home defense weapon, over and above a service semi-auto, in the last 20 years (if ever)? I can’t, but perhaps you can.
For anyone that has read what I’ve written here, they know that I’m not in any way anti snub. In fact, a 642 in a pocket holster is my most frequently carried EDC weapon these days (during the parts of the year when school is in session). However, it’s due to some very particular issues, that make it very useful for concealed carry (but not necessarily as a primary home defense weapon).
Positives:
1) Ease of concealability, and on/off. Given that I’m frequently in very non-permissive environments (universities), a snub in a pocket holster is very easy to remove when I arrive on campus, and lock in my car. And very easy to put back in my pocket at the end of the day. For the 13 years that I lived in Atlanta, my daily carry was a 1911 in an IWB holster, and I did so in spite of the extra effort required when arriving at, and leaving campus. It’s still very frequently my EDC, when school isn’t in session.
2) Revolvers are generally more reliable than semi-autos, and the issue is much more pronounced when it comes to small guns. Small semi-autos, particularly those that are chambered in .22, .25, and .380 are generally the most unreliable of ALL firearms. A small revolver is much more reliable. When it comes to shooting from within a pocket, there is no comparison - revolver hands down.
3) Ease of use. With no safety or slide release, the manual of arms for a revolver is simpler (excluding reloading). For those willing to train, ease of use is a much less important factor, but it can be significant for beginners, or those “gun guys” who’s skill at arms is derived by virtue of being a red-blooded American man who grew up watching John Wayne movies.
Negatives:
1) Difficult to shoot well. With long heavy trigger pulls, small rudimentary sights, short sight radii, and abbreviated grips, snubbies are harder to shoot well. Indeed, they are among the most difficult of all handguns to shoot well. Belly gun distance is one thing. How about head shots on a home invader holding your teenaged daughter across the longest distance inside of your house? A full sized semi auto or revolver is MUCH easier to shoot well. A carbine is easier still, and makes such shots easy.
2) Fierce recoil. Stoke an aluminum/scandium etc. framed snubbie with .38+p or .357 ammo, and it makes for a gun that most won’t want to shoot more 5-12 rounds through. The result? Flinch inducing recoil, and a general unwillingness among most to do any sort of meaningful practicing with the gun. Full sized guns tame recoil, and as such, are easier to shoot.
3) Difficult to reload. For most, a magazine fed semi auto is much easier to reload than any revolver, even a moon clip gun. Stats show that generally, 5-6 rounds are sufficient to sort out most problems. But what about those times when they’re not?
I can make a good case for concealed carry of snubbies. But as a primary home defense gun? Nope. The only reason I’d grab a snubbie for home defense is if NONE of my full sized handguns (or long guns) was available.
Oh, and as for your situation of your 640 in a bathrobe pocket? Ayoob would have taught you to arm yourself, place yourself in a position of cover where you could cover the front door, and call the police, rather than pursuing the very tactically unsound decision to open the door to an unknown person (or persons) banging on your door at night, even while armed. However, if for some reason answering the door becomes an absolute necessity, a full sized handgun can easily be held in the hand to the side of the door frame. Out of sight to whoever is at the door, and immediately available.
Can you provide any link to anywhere that Ayoob has recommended a snub nosed as a primary home defense weapon, over and above a service semi-auto, in the last 20 years (if ever)? I can’t, but perhaps you can.
For anyone that has read what I’ve written here, they know that I’m not in any way anti snub. In fact, a 642 in a pocket holster is my most frequently carried EDC weapon these days (during the parts of the year when school is in session). However, it’s due to some very particular issues, that make it very useful for concealed carry (but not necessarily as a primary home defense weapon).
Positives:
1) Ease of concealability, and on/off. Given that I’m frequently in very non-permissive environments (universities), a snub in a pocket holster is very easy to remove when I arrive on campus, and lock in my car. And very easy to put back in my pocket at the end of the day. For the 13 years that I lived in Atlanta, my daily carry was a 1911 in an IWB holster, and I did so in spite of the extra effort required when arriving at, and leaving campus. It’s still very frequently my EDC, when school isn’t in session.
2) Revolvers are generally more reliable than semi-autos, and the issue is much more pronounced when it comes to small guns. Small semi-autos, particularly those that are chambered in .22, .25, and .380 are generally the most unreliable of ALL firearms. A small revolver is much more reliable. When it comes to shooting from within a pocket, there is no comparison - revolver hands down.
3) Ease of use. With no safety or slide release, the manual of arms for a revolver is simpler (excluding reloading). For those willing to train, ease of use is a much less important factor, but it can be significant for beginners, or those “gun guys” who’s skill at arms is derived by virtue of being a red-blooded American man who grew up watching John Wayne movies.
Negatives:
1) Difficult to shoot well. With long heavy trigger pulls, small rudimentary sights, short sight radii, and abbreviated grips, snubbies are harder to shoot well. Indeed, they are among the most difficult of all handguns to shoot well. Belly gun distance is one thing. How about head shots on a home invader holding your teenaged daughter across the longest distance inside of your house? A full sized semi auto or revolver is MUCH easier to shoot well. A carbine is easier still, and makes such shots easy.
2) Fierce recoil. Stoke an aluminum/scandium etc. framed snubbie with .38+p or .357 ammo, and it makes for a gun that most won’t want to shoot more 5-12 rounds through. The result? Flinch inducing recoil, and a general unwillingness among most to do any sort of meaningful practicing with the gun. Full sized guns tame recoil, and as such, are easier to shoot.
3) Difficult to reload. For most, a magazine fed semi auto is much easier to reload than any revolver, even a moon clip gun. Stats show that generally, 5-6 rounds are sufficient to sort out most problems. But what about those times when they’re not?
I can make a good case for concealed carry of snubbies. But as a primary home defense gun? Nope. The only reason I’d grab a snubbie for home defense is if NONE of my full sized handguns (or long guns) was available.
Oh, and as for your situation of your 640 in a bathrobe pocket? Ayoob would have taught you to arm yourself, place yourself in a position of cover where you could cover the front door, and call the police, rather than pursuing the very tactically unsound decision to open the door to an unknown person (or persons) banging on your door at night, even while armed. However, if for some reason answering the door becomes an absolute necessity, a full sized handgun can easily be held in the hand to the side of the door frame. Out of sight to whoever is at the door, and immediately available.
it is in his book in the gravest extreme , chapter 13 page 95, also in his book stress fire but don’t have my copy anymore
actually i just found a video by ayoob discussing what to do with that 3am knock
basically do what i did,,do not have a firearm in your hand ,have one highly concealed and one you can get to if needed .
interesting video and as usual makes a lot of sense .
back in those days we had no ring cameras to see out or cctv …we pretty much had a small distorted peep hole which really was poor when you think about , but then again we didn’t expect to have a knock at the door in the middle of the night then either nor did we have cell phones
yes , many forget a spouse may be the one to have to use these weapons and the simpler the better ..
there is a reason a snubby is called a belly gun …it is designed to be compact , easy to hide and for most civilian defense situations , especially in urban areas , up close and personal usually within just feet .
lif you can pull the trigger odds are you will hit your target who is very very close .
for self defense from a safe room behind cover with a space between you and them , a shotgun or rifle is fine.
i like the magsafe fragmentation ammo for our urban situation
my wife has her permit here in nyc too
'The simpler the better"
I did not understand the situation issue when someone knocked on your door in error.
12 ga Mossberg - You hear what is coming just a bit late though.
it is in his book in the gravest extreme , chapter 13 page 95, also in his book stress fire but don’t have my copy anymore
Go back and look again. He is talking about a snubbed nose as a beginners gun, not that it is a top choice for home defense, and certainly not that it is superior to full sized guns.
And that book was written in 1980. It contained what was state of the art, from the late 60’s until about the mid 80’s. Lots has changed since then, and Mas certainly changed with the times.
actually i just found a video by ayoob discussing what to do with that 3am knock
basically do what i did,,do not have a firearm in your hand ,have one highly concealed and one you can get to if needed .
interesting video and as usual makes a lot of sense .
back in those days we had no ring cameras to see out or cctv …we pretty much had a small distorted peep hole which really was poor when you think about , but then again we didn’t expect to have a knock at the door in the middle of the night then either nor did we have cell phones
Yeah, at 1:20 of that video, he says exactly what I told you - answering the door when someone who you don’t know and aren’t expecting is banging on it late at night is a bad idea.
I’ve agreed that if you do answer the door, not having a visible firearm is a good idea.
And you’ll notice that nowhere in that video is he recommending a snubbie for home defense.
If someone is knocking on my door at 3 a.m. my 4 dogs will answer.
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