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So glad you mentioned this because, every time I’ve said that she was a sex worker, the response has been usually, “No, she wasn’t,” which I have never understood. It’s so obvious. And Manet died of syphillis.
Referring to the subject as a 'sex worker'(an almost clinical term that would have little to no meaning in La Belle Epoque) really doesn't convey an accurate account of what's going on here. The woman is clearly a courtesan, and the composition suggests a courtesan of elevated and respected status in Parisian society. This explains the evident hubris she displays to an alarmed servant (and gallery voyeurs). Her message is clear: My position is secure, I do as I please, and I will not be judged. Her blase expression says it all.
Manet's succumbing to syphillis would hardly have been a novelty in that time and place.
Referring to the subject as a 'sex worker'(an almost clinical term that would have little to no meaning in La Belle Epoque) really doesn't convey an accurate account of what's going on here. The woman is clearly a courtesan, and the composition suggests a courtesan of elevated and respected status in Parisian society. This explains the evident hubris she displays to an alarmed servant (and gallery voyeurs). Her message is clear: My position is secure, I do as I please, and I will not be judged. Her blase expression says it all.
Manet's succumbing to syphillis would hardly have been a novelty in that time and place.
I think that "successful prostitute" is how I would describe her, as I don't think I would agree that courtesans were as haughty as the subject in Olympia. In fact, a courtesan's charm (and subsequent power) depended on her being deferential and modest. As you said, the message of the look on the subject's face in Olympia is aggressive and direct; a successful courtesan at that time would never have been either of those.
And I agree that syphilis was prevalent during the nineteenth century in Paris. However, it was especially prevalent among Manet and his friends (cf. Baudelaire) who were all educated artists who consorted with prostitutes (hence the syphilis), not courtesans. The successful courtesans of 19th century Paris were associated with people much richer and more powerful (usually royalty) than Manet and co.
I think that "successful prostitute" is how I would describe her, as I don't think I would agree that courtesans were as haughty as the subject in Olympia. In fact, a courtesan's charm (and subsequent power) depended on her being deferential and modest. As you said, the message of the look on the subject's face in Olympia is aggressive and direct; a successful courtesan at that time would never have been either of those.
On the contrary. They were, as a rule, deferential to their lovers, but the courtesan that was allied with a powerful man wielded enormous power and her whims and desires often superceded those of family and friends. Marie Antoinette's first misstep at the French court was her snubbing of Madame DuBarry, the lover of Louis XV (MA's father in law)...incensed, Louis upbraided Marie for her rudeness and forced her to capitulate.
Courtesans were cultivated for their physical charms and were often recruited out of convent schools (an assurance of their virginity). They were carefully trained in matters of etiquette, affairs of state and the arts (particularly the Erotic Arts). Financial agreements were often executed contracturally with their families; quite often the presence of a courtesan in your brood meant an elevation in status for tout la famille.
An interesting depiction of the courtesan in Belle Epoque culture is to be found in Colette's novella Gigi, later celebrated on stage and screen.
And I agree that syphilis was prevalent during the nineteenth century in Paris. However, it was especially prevalent among Manet and his friends (cf. Baudelaire) who were all educated artists who consorted with prostitutes (hence the syphilis), not courtesans. The successful courtesans of 19th century Paris were associated with people much richer and more powerful (usually royalty) than Manet and co.
On the contrary. They were, as a rule, deferential to their lovers, but the courtesan that was allied with a powerful man wielded enormous power and her whims and desires often superceded those of family and friends.
I agree that courtesans wielded enormous power but I disagree that they were haughty or brazen: Colette’s Gigi is a perfect example. The title character must be trained to ignore her natural impulses and to be coquettish.
Marie Antoinette may have had to apologize to Du Barry but only because her attitude towards the king’s mistress was viewed as an insult to the king; it had nothing to do with Du Barry demanding an apology. In fact, in that same Wikipedia article, Du Barry is referred to as “timid.”
I agree that courtesans wielded enormous power but I disagree that they were haughty or brazen: Colette’s Gigi is a perfect example. The title character must be trained to ignore her natural impulses and to be coquettish.
Marie Antoinette may have had to apologize to Du Barry but only because her attitude towards the king’s mistress was viewed as an insult to the king; it had nothing to do with Du Barry demanding an apology.
Re: The bolded commentary, said article says the following:
Marie Antoinette defied court protocol by refusing to speak to Madame du Barry. She not only disapproved of Jeanne's background, but felt insulted when she heard from the Comte de Provence of Jeanne's laughter at a salacious story told by the Cardinal de Rohan about Marie Antoinette's mother, Empress Maria Theresa.[37] Jeanne furiously complained to the king, who then complained to the Austrian ambassador Mercy, who in turn did his best to appease Marie Antoinette. Eventually, during a ball on New Year's Day 1772, Marie Antoinette spoke indirectly to Jeanne, casually observing; "There are many people at Versailles today",[38][2] giving her the option to respond or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarlaJane
In fact, in that same Wikipedia article, Du Barry is referred to as “timid.”
Yes, she is...to the Sisters of the Abbey du Pont-aux-Dames. It would seem expedient of her to assume a timid demeanor considering her circumstances.
Following the death of the king and his grandson's ascension to the throne as Louis XVI, the new Queen Marie Antoinette had Jeanne exiled to the Abbey du Pont-aux-Dames near Meaux-en-Brie.[30] At first she was met coldly by the nuns, but soon enough they softened to her timid ways and opened up to her, most of all the abbess Madame de la Roche-Fontenelle.
There are plenty of written accounts that suggest that Du Barry was wholly capable of political machinations, court intrigue and dealing with rivals. I've no doubt that she countenanced the future queen of France with an expression not unlike the one you see in Olympia.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenstyle
If this country had been settled by normal Europeans and not religious fanatics, this prudishness would have never existed over here.
I've been reading the book Killing The Witches about the Salem witch trials and it's absolutely shocking what those self professed 'Christians' did, allegedly in the name of 'God'. And the prudishness still exists, I remember there being far more outrage over Janet Jackson's little 'malfunction' at the Super Bowl than I saw over some of America's bloody, co$tly wars of choice that accomplsihed little but making some folks lots of $$$.
I've been reading the book Killing The Witches about the Salem witch trials and it's absolutely shocking what those self professed 'Christians' did, allegedly in the name of 'God'. And the prudishness still exists, I remember there being far more outrage over Janet Jackson's little 'malfunction' at the Super Bowl than I saw over some of America's bloody, co$tly wars of choice that accomplsihed little but making some folks lots of $$$.
Ironic that these people were descendants of those that fled here to evade religious persecution in Europe.
Ascetic cults such as the Puritans seem to best thrive in isolated, loosely controlled milieux. European monarchies with an organized hierarchy weren't having it.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,327 posts, read 54,358,694 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconographer
Ironic that these people were descendants of those that fled here to evade religious persecution in Europe.
Ascetic cults such as the Puritans seem to best thrive in isolated, loosely controlled milieux. European monarchies with an organized hierarchy weren't having it.
So much of what went on wasn't taught in the schools I attended. I believe it should be to serve as a warning as what can happen when people start 'seeing' demons behind every rock and in every shadow or try to tell us natural occurrences like earthquakes and eclipses are warnings from 'God'.
Re: The bolded commentary, said article says the following:
Marie Antoinette defied court protocol by refusing to speak to Madame du Barry. She not only disapproved of Jeanne's background, but felt insulted when she heard from the Comte de Provence of Jeanne's laughter at a salacious story told by the Cardinal de Rohan about Marie Antoinette's mother, Empress Maria Theresa.[37] Jeanne furiously complained to the king, who then complained to the Austrian ambassador Mercy, who in turn did his best to appease Marie Antoinette. Eventually, during a ball on New Year's Day 1772, Marie Antoinette spoke indirectly to Jeanne, casually observing; "There are many people at Versailles today",[38][2] giving her the option to respond or not.
Yes, she is...to the Sisters of the Abbey du Pont-aux-Dames. It would seem expedient of her to assume a timid demeanor considering her circumstances.
Following the death of the king and his grandson's ascension to the throne as Louis XVI, the new Queen Marie Antoinette had Jeanne exiled to the Abbey du Pont-aux-Dames near Meaux-en-Brie.[30] At first she was met coldly by the nuns, but soon enough they softened to her timid ways and opened up to her, most of all the abbess Madame de la Roche-Fontenelle.
There are plenty of written accounts that suggest that Du Barry was wholly capable of political machinations, court intrigue and dealing with rivals. I've no doubt that she countenanced the future queen of France with an expression not unlike the one you see in Olympia.
Political machinations, yes, but immodesty, no. She was living at Versailles where one needed to be subtle in their scheming. Moreover, your responses constantly skirt Du Barry's demeanor, which was not forward or brazen. She was educated in a convent, and she would not have survived at court if she behaved the way that you have stated.
Re: the dispute with Marie Antoinette, you're right, Du Barry did complain to the Louis XV but the king sided with Marie Antoinette:
Since these soirées were not only socially delightful but an honour Madame du Barry soon complained to the King. Louis XV approached the Dauphine who delicately said that she could hardly invite the Comtesse since the King's daughters (Mesdames Tantes) were always invited. Everyone knew of Mesdames Tantes' strong dislike of their father's newest mistress and since Louis was ever frightful of creating embarrassment he agreed with the Dauphine.
Marie Antoinette finally spoke to Du Barry at the behest of her mother, not because the king complained but, rather, because the Empress stated that ignoring Du Barry was an insult to the king:
Empress Maria Theresia of Austria was very well aware of her daughter's feud with the King's mistress and she was not pleased. Since Marie Antoinette's marriage was still unconsummated the young Dauphine was in a dangerous position; non-consummation was a valid reason to annul a marriage. To the Empress it was vital that Marie Antoinette did not make her position worse by insulting the King and she continuously demanded that Marie Antoinette ended her silent treatment. With the formidable letters from her mother as well as the constant pressure from the Austrian ambassador Marie Antoinette finally caved in.
On 1 January 1772 she made the following remark to the Comtesse:
Political machinations, yes, but immodesty, no. She was living at Versailles where one needed to be subtle in their scheming. Moreover, your responses constantly skirt Du Barry's demeanor, which was not forward or brazen. She was educated in a convent, and she would not have survived at court if she behaved the way that you have stated.
Re: the dispute with Marie Antoinette, you're right, Du Barry did complain to the Louis XV but the king sided with Marie Antoinette:
Since these soirées were not only socially delightful but an honour Madame du Barry soon complained to the King. Louis XV approached the Dauphine who delicately said that she could hardly invite the Comtesse since the King's daughters (Mesdames Tantes) were always invited. Everyone knew of Mesdames Tantes' strong dislike of their father's newest mistress and since Louis was ever frightful of creating embarrassment he agreed with the Dauphine.
Marie Antoinette finally spoke to Du Barry at the behest of her mother, not because the king complained but, rather, because the Empress stated that ignoring Du Barry was an insult to the king:
Empress Maria Theresia of Austria was very well aware of her daughter's feud with the King's mistress and she was not pleased. Since Marie Antoinette's marriage was still unconsummated the young Dauphine was in a dangerous position; non-consummation was a valid reason to annul a marriage. To the Empress it was vital that Marie Antoinette did not make her position worse by insulting the King and she continuously demanded that Marie Antoinette ended her silent treatment. With the formidable letters from her mother as well as the constant pressure from the Austrian ambassador Marie Antoinette finally caved in.
On 1 January 1772 she made the following remark to the Comtesse:
"There are a lot of people today at Versailles"
I still infer that timidity may have been part of du Barry's artifice, but not her nature. No woman of low position in that time could have achieved that level of importance without a will of steel.
As for Louis XV's position on the matter, his motivation would have primarily been born of an earnest desire to maintain the Austrian alliance and not his personal feeling on the matter. This would have no doubt figured into du Barry's thinking as well.
Point du Barry.
Last edited by Iconographer; 04-13-2024 at 07:06 AM..
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And the prudishness still exists, I remember there being far more outrage over Janet Jackson's little 'malfunction' at the Super Bowl than I saw over some of America's bloody, co$tly wars of choice that accomplsihed little but making some folks lots of $$$.