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I always wished that we had a commuter rail line from downtown Cleveland to downtown Akron and all the way to Downtown Canton even...that said I don't think the National Park service would want this
I don't see how so few extra short commuter trains would disrupt the CVNP - modern bi-level push/pull trains are an engine + 2 or 3 cars whereby CVSR trains seem to have about 6-8 passenger cars with oppositve-facing engines on each end. The Towpath is not going anywhere and, again, I am emphasizing that CVSR continue and be integrated into this service -- on non-Browns weekends (meaning all but 8 or 10 per year), CVSR would have total reign over the tracks.
And as far as having these few more trains would somehow disrupt Towpath hikers -- 4 to 5 round trips on weekdays -- how are Red Line Greenway hikers/bikers/strollers with infants/dog walkers -- not disrupted by walking next to the RTA Red Line with all-day (save 3 hours in the early morning0 trains every 15 mins in both directions 7 days/week? And the RLGW travels through some dicey post-industrial areas of town.
It’s not about disrupting Towpath hikers.
The CVNP ecosystem goes way beyond the Towpath trail. It’s a natural gem, a haven for native wildlife and plants, with all the protections afforded it as a U.S. National Park - the only such park in the state. These types of places are rare. Call me a tree hugger, but I value them immensely.
There is little comparison between it and the urban green belt strip along the Red Line (nothing against the RLGW, which is great for what it is…). People expect some level of noise and pollution along urban green belts adjacent to light rail lines.
To introduce new runs of 8-10 diesel trains per day along the lifeline of the park, the scenic river valley, as a metro-to-metro commuter corridor would be an atrocity IMO.
Fairly certain this is a moot point as long as the NPS owns the line.
The CVNP ecosystem goes way beyond the Towpath trail. It’s a natural gem, a haven for native wildlife and plants, with all the protections afforded it as a U.S. National Park - the only such park in the state. These types of places are rare. Call me a tree hugger, but I value them immensely.
There is little comparison between it and the urban green belt strip along the Red Line (nothing against the RLGW, which is great for what it is…). People expect some level of noise and pollution along urban green belts adjacent to light rail lines.
I wasn't comparing the 2 pathways qualitatively, I was addressing what I perceived was your assumption that somehow the few more trains would somehow interfere with hikers along the Towpath. (btw, the Red Line is heavy, not light rail)... Go ahead and hug your trees, they wouldn't be the least bit harmed with commuter rail... If anything, the overall I-77 corridor next door would have far fewer harmful emissions with hundreds to thousands of commuting autos removed roadways with commuter rail. For one thing, I'm sure train riders into downtown Cleveland would rejoice at avoiding the oft-monumental backup at the I-77/480 spaghetti-junction interchange.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlideRules99
To introduce new runs of 8-10 diesel trains per day along the lifeline of the park, the scenic river valley, as a metro-to-metro commuter corridor would be an atrocity IMO.
Fairly certain this is a moot point as long as the NPS owns the line.
Respectfully…
I think this is a bit of an exaggeration. Modern diesel-electric engines are much quieter and produce far fewer emissions than their predecessors -- this is pursuant to current EPA/FTA regulations. Quite frankly, the more modern bi-level push-pull commuter consists are probably much more environmentally friendly than the current nostalgia-driven, old-timey CVSR trains ... just sayin'
Why not just run a shuttle or bus service from downtown to the CVNP and save hundreds of millions of dollars? The service would be better; in 20-30 years, it likely could be an autonomous, much less expensive service. It would be infinitely less fuel intensive given the size and weight of trains.
Nah, buses will never be an adequate substitute for trains. Bus transfer to the CVSR Rockside terminal exists currently and doesn't cut it. Even for a purely CVSR tourist extension to Tower City: current and recent past planners recognize rail is the only way to go. 2 things stopping them: 1. the expense (funny, we can never find $$ for rail but drop $Billions for freeways at the blink of an eyelash, no questions asked). 2. The constant battle with freight railroads, CSX in this case -- the same folks holding back/screwing up Amtrak and any high-speed rail talk -- keeping the USA in 3rd World status in terms of passenger rail compared to the rest of the industrialized world... American freight carriers despise passenger trains over their rails so they jack up insurance costs and influence powerful pols to maintain the status quo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
Fixed rail service expansion should be put on hold IMO until we understand the impact of the autonomous vehicle revolution. Hub-and-spoke service seems the future, with autonomous vehicles feeding the hubs connected either by bus service or rail, depending upon the level and frequency of transit demand.
We have much better uses for very limited mass transit dollars in Greater Cleveland IMO.
I completely disagree... The autonomous car talk has been used for years to stymie reasonable mass transit/rail expansion (Exhibit A: Columbus, OH). Cities in other areas of the country (see, beyond the stodgy Midwest) are building and expanding transit -- even in conservative states like Utah and Tennessee. Those folks are doers... We make excuses.
... and if the funds for transit are limited -- which they sorely are in this backward, knuckle-dragging state, then we all need to be more activist-minded demanding more.
I have thought the same in the past, why not turn CVSR into a commuter from Akron North to downtown Cleveland. You can also rope in Canton, the CVSR used to go all the way down to Canton, the track is there, but they discontinued that section.
The problem with the idea is this:
* it would need sustained federal funding that would eat away at CVSR revenue (compare ticket prices)
* it competes with existing bus service between Akron's Metro system and the RTA bus system, the two are already connected, and buses work great
* there are not enough connections along the way - parking lots would need to be built at various points for it to be viable. So you'd need the CVNP on board allowing park land for parking lots for commuters (Walton Hills, Cuyahoga Falls, etc.)
Its a nice idea, but just doesn't hold water. Agree with SlideRules on the proper use of CVNP land.
I have thought the same in the past, why not turn CVSR into a commuter from Akron North to downtown Cleveland. You can also rope in Canton, the CVSR used to go all the way down to Canton, the track is there, but they discontinued that section.
The problem with the idea is this:
* it would need sustained federal funding that would eat away at CVSR revenue (compare ticket prices)
* it competes with existing bus service between Akron's Metro system and the RTA bus system, the two are already connected, and buses work great
* there are not enough connections along the way - parking lots would need to be built at various points for it to be viable. So you'd need the CVNP on board allowing park land for parking lots for commuters (Walton Hills, Cuyahoga Falls, etc.)
Its a nice idea, but just doesn't hold water. Agree with SlideRules on the proper use of CVNP land.
I readily agree that CVSR is NOT the ideal commuter rail system. Other routes rate much higher, such as the few-trains-per-week old Erie RR route serving the Stouffer's/Nestle's plant in Solon, or the busier old Penn Central route SE along Broadway Ave through Bedford and Hudson, where an Akron branch exists.
I am just seizing on CVSR because we actually have a working, 27-mile, full-fledged, passenger-only railroad.
Cleveland is so backward and frustrating when it comes to transit and roads... We had a head start on all American mid-sized metros in building a grade-separated rapid transit in the 19-teens and 1920s. Terminal Tower/Union Station was revolutionary as a combined underground Rapid/train station in the focal point/center of downtown (whereby most intercity train stations are either at the edge of downtown or, like Cincy, not even downtown at all). And ours was a mixed-use masterpiece topped with an unheard of, outside NYC, 52-story, 708-foot office tower, interconnected underground with hotels, retail, and other offices. And the Vans built future rapid rights-of-way, one of which we built the crosstown Red Line which, itself, became the revolutionary Airport-to-downtown passenger rail line...
... but then we just stopped. All that rail commuter and transit potential flushed down the toilet. We simply gave up/gave in to the vast highway lobby that has paved over farmland and created horrific sprawl ... which continues today. We should have commuter rail, like other similar cities (Minneapolis-St. Paul, Nashville, Austin, TX, Salt Lake City, Orlando ... even friggin' uber-tiny Albequerque, NM... just to name a few). Where is Cleveland???? (forget Waldo)... We have more unrealized transit potential than any town our size ... but we are lethargic to progress. We can't even convince ourselves to tear down the lightly-used, uglifying, lakefront-separating elevated Shoreway. Why? Because we have sold out to, and are helpless against, the auto/highway lobby, which is mostly run from downstate.
We should have commuter rail, like other similar cities (Minneapolis-St. Paul, Nashville, Austin, TX, Salt Lake City, Orlando ... even friggin' uber-tiny Albequerque, NM... just to name a few). Where is Cleveland???? (forget Waldo)... We have more unrealized transit potential than any town our size ... but we are lethargic to progress. We can't even convince ourselves to tear down the lightly-used, uglifying, lakefront-separating elevated Shoreway. Why? Because we have sold out to, and are helpless against, the auto/highway lobby, which is mostly run from downstate.
I don’t dispute the value of commuter rail for a moment.
However, having just moved to CLE last year, and having traveled here frequently for 20 years prior, it occurred to me that this subjectively feels like one of the the least auto-congested metro areas I’ve experienced.
So I looked it up…focusing on pre-pandemic data to get a realistic view of what things were like before commuter traffic plummeted. (BTW, there is an argument to be made that we may not reach 2019 traffic levels for many years…)
According to the Urban Mobility report, in 2019, CLE was tied for 7th best out of 32 large metro areas (1-3M people), as measured by annual person hours of delay per commuter. Only Richmond, Raleigh, Virginia Beach, PITT, SLC, and STL bested CLE. (To be clear, 7th best means 7th lowest commuter delay…). CLE is best of the 3 “C’s” in OH.
For Medium sized metros (500k- 1M), Akron was also tied for 7th best out of 33 medium metro areas. Only Bakersfield, Provo, Dayton, Sarasota, Wichita, and Allentown fared better.
Out of the handful of cities you mentioned in your “what about…” comparisons, only Salt Lake City outperforms CLE. (CLE is tied with Albuquerque…).
I’m not suggesting we stick our heads in the sand and not plan ahead. However, a little perspective on auto congestion is in order.
Auto travel (not to mention parking) is very easy here, relative to other metros. Could it get worse with growth? Well, sure.
Admittedly this is one data source. And again, it is quite consistent with my own subjective experiences. And to state the obvious, this is in spite of the existing rail commute infrastructure (or lack thereof) across all these metros.
Link here. Details on pages 14-15. Again, 2019 data was used, as things dropped off a cliff in 2020.
I readily agree that CVSR is NOT the ideal commuter rail system. Other routes rate much higher, such as the few-trains-per-week old Erie RR route serving the Stouffer's/Nestle's plant in Solon, or the busier old Penn Central route SE along Broadway Ave through Bedford and Hudson, where an Akron branch exists.
I am just seizing on CVSR because we actually have a working, 27-mile, full-fledged, passenger-only railroad.
Cleveland is so backward and frustrating when it comes to transit and roads... We had a head start on all American mid-sized metros in building a grade-separated rapid transit in the 19-teens and 1920s. Terminal Tower/Union Station was revolutionary as a combined underground Rapid/train station in the focal point/center of downtown (whereby most intercity train stations are either at the edge of downtown or, like Cincy, not even downtown at all). And ours was a mixed-use masterpiece topped with an unheard of, outside NYC, 52-story, 708-foot office tower, interconnected underground with hotels, retail, and other offices. And the Vans built future rapid rights-of-way, one of which we built the crosstown Red Line which, itself, became the revolutionary Airport-to-downtown passenger rail line...
... but then we just stopped. All that rail commuter and transit potential flushed down the toilet. We simply gave up/gave in to the vast highway lobby that has paved over farmland and created horrific sprawl ... which continues today. We should have commuter rail, like other similar cities (Minneapolis-St. Paul, Nashville, Austin, TX, Salt Lake City, Orlando ... even friggin' uber-tiny Albequerque, NM... just to name a few). Where is Cleveland???? (forget Waldo)... We have more unrealized transit potential than any town our size ... but we are lethargic to progress. We can't even convince ourselves to tear down the lightly-used, uglifying, lakefront-separating elevated Shoreway. Why? Because we have sold out to, and are helpless against, the auto/highway lobby, which is mostly run from downstate.
I agree with your assessment of Cleveland transit - and I love trains and transit myself. I don't ride the rapid regularly but I did take it about a month ago, buying a day pass and riding all over (Green Rd to the airport, etc.) And it would be kind of cool to turn the already-made CVSR into a commuter route between Akron and Cleveland - but it just would have to be subsidized.
I used to live in Dallas. In 1970, both DFW and CLE CSAs were about the same ~3M. Today, CLE is still at around 3M and DFW is closing in on 8M! They had to get something going on the light rail, which is good thing they did, it is helping. If CLE had that growth, I would like to think we would have a Chicago class train&subway system by now. But alas... There is plenty of upside to not having that growth but I won't go there now.
I don’t dispute the value of commuter rail for a moment.
However, having just moved to CLE last year, and having traveled here frequently for 20 years prior, it occurred to me that this subjectively feels like one of the the least auto-congested metro areas I’ve experienced.
So I looked it up…focusing on pre-pandemic data to get a realistic view of what things were like before commuter traffic plummeted. (BTW, there is an argument to be made that we may not reach 2019 traffic levels for many years…)
According to the Urban Mobility report, in 2019, CLE was tied for 7th best out of 32 large metro areas (1-3M people), as measured by annual person hours of delay per commuter. Only Richmond, Raleigh, Virginia Beach, PITT, SLC, and STL bested CLE. (To be clear, 7th best means 7th lowest commuter delay…). CLE is best of the 3 “C’s” in OH.
For Medium sized metros (500k- 1M), Akron was also tied for 7th best out of 33 medium metro areas. Only Bakersfield, Provo, Dayton, Sarasota, Wichita, and Allentown fared better.
Out of the handful of cities you mentioned in your “what about…” comparisons, only Salt Lake City outperforms CLE. (CLE is tied with Albuquerque…).
I’m not suggesting we stick our heads in the sand and not plan ahead. However, a little perspective on auto congestion is in order.
Auto travel (not to mention parking) is very easy here, relative to other metros. Could it get worse with growth? Well, sure.
Admittedly this is one data source. And again, it is quite consistent with my own subjective experiences. And to state the obvious, this is in spite of the existing rail commute infrastructure (or lack thereof) across all these metros.
Link here. Details on pages 14-15. Again, 2019 data was used, as things dropped off a cliff in 2020.
I don't doubt everything you're saying or your stats -- yes, Cleveland overall has lighter traffic than some larger metro areas with better transit. But, again, this should not be the catchall reason to not build esp, as I have noted, again and again, Cleveland has natural advantages for rail transit: notably: 1. a 100-year head start with rapid transit compared to similar size/density cities, and 2. freight rail lines, many at or near abandonment, that radiate out from the downtown core, many sharing ROWs with the Rapid into our amazing mixed-use Tower City terminal.
And light traffic? Again, I list for you: Salt Lake City, Albuquerque, Nashville, Sacramento, Austin, Orlando, Minneapolis all have built commuter rail within the last 2 decades, and in most cases, are expanding it. With perhaps a minor, minor exception, these cities all have lighter traffic than CLE and are smaller. I'll say it again: it is much easier to make up excuses for not to build transit than to build. Ohio is such a stick-in-the-mud on so many levels; we are going backward. I just always believed that Cleveland was more progressive than the rest of the state, esp in mass transit... We WERE up to about 40 or so years ago, but we are succumbing; turning into a typical Ohio City.
Sprawl is good, right?
... and while some are basking in Cleveland's alleged light density, light traffic and easy parking, some good news is on the horizon. We actually are creating neighborhood and corridor density; even a few TOD developments. Look at Uptown/Little Italy and Ohio City/Duck Island TOD. And now, the huge Circle Square highrise apt development, coupled with the huge and gorgeous and graceful nearby One University Circle 20-story apt tower.
And downtown, we are finally filling in those dreaded surface parking lots with new skyscraper offices (Sherwin-Williams) and apartment highrises: Beacon, Lumen (and soon Lumen Act II), City Club and, yes, the 33-story Hilton hotel.... More density and foot traffic; less cheap/free parking; ... more traffic. Cleveland is becoming, once again, a truly urban city... And true modern urban cities require quality transit solutions, not Hyperloop or self-driving car fantasies.
I don't doubt everything you're saying or your stats -- yes, Cleveland overall has lighter traffic than some larger metro areas with better transit. But, again, this should not be the catchall reason to not build esp, as I have noted, again and again, Cleveland has natural advantages for rail transit: notably: 1. a 100-year head start with rapid transit compared to similar size/density cities, and 2. freight rail lines, many at or near abandonment, that radiate out from the downtown core, many sharing ROWs with the Rapid into our amazing mixed-use Tower City terminal.
And light traffic? Again, I list for you: Salt Lake City, Albuquerque, Nashville, Sacramento, Austin, Orlando, Minneapolis all have built commuter rail within the last 2 decades, and in most cases, are expanding it. With perhaps a minor, minor exception, these cities all have lighter traffic than CLE and are smaller. I'll say it again: it is much easier to make up excuses for not to build transit than to build. Ohio is such a stick-in-the-mud on so many levels; we are going backward. I just always believed that Cleveland was more progressive than the rest of the state, esp in mass transit... We WERE up to about 40 or so years ago, but we are succumbing; turning into a typical Ohio City.
Sprawl is good, right?
... and while some are basking in Cleveland's alleged light density, light traffic and easy parking, some good news is on the horizon. We actually are creating neighborhood and corridor density; even a few TOD developments. Look at Uptown/Little Italy and Ohio City/Duck Island TOD. And now, the huge Circle Square highrise apt development, coupled with the huge and gorgeous and graceful nearby One University Circle 20-story apt tower.
And downtown, we are finally filling in those dreaded surface parking lots with new skyscraper offices (Sherwin-Williams) and apartment highrises: Beacon, Lumen (and soon Lumen Act II), City Club and, yes, the 33-story Hilton hotel.... More density and foot traffic; less cheap/free parking; ... more traffic. Cleveland is becoming, once again, a truly urban city... And true modern urban cities require quality transit solutions, not Hyperloop or self-driving car fantasies.
I did mention I see merits in rail transit. I’ve lived and/or traveled in many metro areas, and used rail transit (with mixed results, I would add…some are flat out unsafe…).
My chief objection with your proposal centers on the use of 26 miles of prime National Park green space as a commuter corridor. I’ve outlined the rationale for those objections earlier. If you choose to classify that as an “excuse”, that is your prerogative.
More generally though: You need to match up multi-million dollar rail build-outs with actual demand for the ridership services. Otherwise you end up with near empty cars, and a major socio-economic disparity and stigma associated with ridership. It sets things back…it is hard to undo that.
It takes me 18 minutes from CH to drive to an Indians game, park conveniently at Prospect and E. 9th (for a reasonable fee) and stroll 2 blocks to Progressive Field.
I drove to Akron during evening commute hours for a concert at the Civic Center. Drove highway speeds, parked across the street from a sold-out venue for a few bucks, and walked in. (When I did similar outings from San Jose to SF, I had to take off by 3p to avoid traffic on 101. The rail options never got me close enough to the venues. And parking? Nightmare).
It is way too easy here. It’s not “basking”, it’s characterizing the situation. I’m afraid you won’t have the ridership…yet.
I hope the projects you outlined do yield results on urban density. It’s great for the city.
Last edited by SlideRules99; 02-22-2022 at 10:15 PM..
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