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The infamous 1 Thess. "rapture" passage. Let's take another look at it:
Quote:
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Bolded verse 15 paraphrased: "Now I have this on direct authority from God Himself what I am about to say to you." Paul is about to lay his entire reputation as a prophet and man of God on the line. Remember the OT warning, "If a prophet prophecies a thing and it does not come to pass he is a false prophet and shall be stoned."
17 "Then 'we' [you good folks of Thessolonia, myself, and all Christians alive today in this 1st century] which are alive will be lifted into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Paul assures the Thessolonians that HE and they will take part in this great event.
Now several questions arise from this simple statement. Please consider them carefully and see if Paul committed the biggest blunder of the Christians era, or did he foist the biggest lie in the history of man onto the Christian community:
Question #1:
Is Paul talking about a literal lifting in the air of physical bodies which then change to glorified, OR is he speaking of a spiritual change in our "inner" bodies (souls)?
Question #2:
Was Paul referring to a future event or one that would take place in his day?
*If future, why did Paul word the passage in such a way that the Thessolonians could only interpret it to mean that they were to be the recipients of this glorious event. That would have been purely deceitful on Paul's part. That Paul falsely included himself in this passage only adds to the deceit, giving the Thessolonians false hope that he himself would be there to accompany them to heaven.
*If present, why didn't the rapture take place. What must Paul have been thinking when, 10 or 15 years later, the rapture never happened and he was under the axman's blade? Possibly, "Huh"? Wa Hoppon?"
Question #3:
If Paul was speaking of a spiritual lifting up of souls to God when they receive Jesus, did the Thessolonians understand that Paul was speaking of spiritual matters and not a physical change?
Question #4
If the Thessolonians didn't understand this was to be a spiritual change then why didn't Paul correct their misunderstanding and say to them plainly, "Hey, you guys are misunderstanding me. I'm not speaking of a physical translation; I'm speaking of a spiritual one."
Again, in a nutshell: if Paul was speaking of a physical rapture in his lifetime, and he had it on direct authority from God that this rapture was going to occur in his lifetime, then why did he die under an axman's blade years later?
I'd appreciate your best answers from futurists and preterists alike so we can determine if Paul is either the most misunderstood apostle in the Bible or the most egregious.
Well other than it being plain as day what Paul meant, I will however tackle the time of the event. Jesus Himself did not know so how would Paul know. Paul only knew it was soon, the "end times" began after Jesus rose from the dead. It could have been the day after after he addressed the Thessalonians or it could have been a thousand years after Paul's death. The apostle Paul had done nothing different than many preachers who preached about the end times and now they are dead and gone to be with the Lord and the people who listened to them. Paul was very clear that we shouldn't be doing nothing waiting for the return but to be business as usual because we don't know the day or the hour.
Well other than it being plain as day what Paul meant, I will however tackle the time of the event. Jesus Himself did not know so how would Paul know. Paul only knew it was soon, the "end times" began after Jesus rose from the dead. It could have been the day after after he addressed the Thessalonians or it could have been a thousand years after Paul's death. The apostle Paul had done nothing different than many preachers who preached about the end times and now they are dead and gone to be with the Lord and the people who listened to them. Paul was very clear that we shouldn't be doing nothing waiting for the return but to be business as usual because we don't know the day or the hour.
I disagree. There is nothing in that entire passage that would give the vaguest suggestion that the Thessolonians in particular or future Christians should be patient or that the event might take a thousand years to happen. On the contrary, everything in Paul's language makes the event sound imminent. If Paul meant that the event might take a thousand years to happen he should have stated that plainly in the text. That he didn't plainly state that only proves all the more that he thought the event would happen in his lifetime.
One day for God is a thousand years for us. Soon for Him is a lot shorter for Him than it is for us. We must be patient.
God's Word is alive...so when Paul spoke to his audience, I feel I am included in this audience...even though I am over 1500 years in the future. The Lord didn't direct him to speak only to his immediate audience in those letters...the Lord knew His Word would live and continue on even to this century.
One day for God is a thousand years for us. Soon for Him is a lot shorter for Him than it is for us. We must be patient.
God's Word is alive...so when Paul spoke to his audience, I feel I am included in this audience...even though I am over 1500 years in the future. The Lord didn't direct him to speak only to his immediate audience in those letters...the Lord knew His Word would live and continue on even to this century.
That's not what's happening here, Stir. Whatever Paul's unspoken beliefs were about when this would take place are lost to time. The facts are Paul is plainly stating to the Thessolonians that they are the ones that are going to take part in a momentous event (that has come to be known as the "rapture") in which they will be translated with their loved loves into the air to meet Jesus and be with the Lord forever. Why would Paul consul them not to be saddened and then tell them the reason they should not be sad is because in a thousand years when they're all dead they will be resurrected. It doesn't make a bit of sense. The point Paul was trying to stress was that their loved ones who had already died would be raised from the dead, they would be caught up alive with them, and all of them would ascend with the Lord to heaven. That's why they should not be sad. It would all happen right then, not at some unknown point in the future. That's what the words say. On the strength of those words, Paul was wrong--plain and simple. He either blundered or deceived. No other choice.
That's not what's happening here, Stir. Whatever Paul's unspoken beliefs were about when this would take place are lost to time. The facts are Paul is plainly stating to the Thessolonians that they are the ones that are going to take part in a momentous event (that has come to be known as the "rapture") in which they will be translated with their loved loves into the air to meet Jesus and be with the Lord forever. Why would Paul consul them not to be saddened and then tell them the reason they should not be sad is because in a thousand years when they're all dead they will be resurrected. It doesn't make a bit of sense. The point Paul was trying to stress was that their loved ones who had already died would be raised from the dead, they would be caught up alive with them, and all of them would ascend with the Lord to heaven. That's why they should not be sad. It would all happen right then, not at some unknown point in the future. That's what the words say. On the strength of those words, Paul was wrong--plain and simple. He either blundered or deceived. No other choice.
So you think the Word of God has a lie in it? Ouch. I think Paul was given "soon". As I said, we interpret soon as being within a few days, weeks, months, or years. But for God's one day, it is a thousand years to us.
I believe Paul was directed by the Holy Spirit. I believe Paul was given the message of soon. Unfortunately, we see soon in our earth years rather than in God's years.
I tend to think that this passage is an ongoing promise to all believers. We can rest assured that those who have fallen asleep before us are already with the Lord since v16 is what happens at the death of every believer. And those of us who are left to mourn those who precede us in death will each, in our turn, be caught up to the Lord at our death to be reunited with those who have gone before us. That's the way I see this passage: not a "rapture" passage, and not a "spiritualized" prophecy either. Just my thoughts.
That's not what's happening here, Stir. Whatever Paul's unspoken beliefs were about when this would take place are lost to time. The facts are Paul is plainly stating to the Thessolonians that they are the ones that are going to take part in a momentous event (that has come to be known as the "rapture") in which they will be translated with their loved loves into the air to meet Jesus and be with the Lord forever. Why would Paul consul them not to be saddened and then tell them the reason they should not be sad is because in a thousand years when they're all dead they will be resurrected. It doesn't make a bit of sense. The point Paul was trying to stress was that their loved ones who had already died would be raised from the dead, they would be caught up alive with them, and all of them would ascend with the Lord to heaven. That's why they should not be sad. It would all happen right then, not at some unknown point in the future. That's what the words say. On the strength of those words, Paul was wrong--plain and simple. He either blundered or deceived. No other choice.
Thrill...I believe you are wasting your time because although Futurists want part of the events in Mt 24 and all of Rev to be taken literally, word for word, they refuse to acknowledge and take literally the very clear and concise time statements throughout the entirety of the NT where Jesus and the Apostles state that all will be fulfilled in their lifetime. That is why their view is so full of bio chips and one world governments, the earth exploding, a new earth filled with sinless people, etc...pure fairie tales. There are even those who acknowledge the time statements and yet say Jesus and the Apostles were "mistaken" about he timing of the events...I sure wouldn't follow anyone who was wrong or mistaken, would you?
So you think the Word of God has a lie in it? Ouch. I think Paul was given "soon". As I said, we interpret soon as being within a few days, weeks, months, or years. But for God's one day, it is a thousand years to us.
I believe Paul was directed by the Holy Spirit. I believe Paul was given the message of soon. Unfortunately, we see soon in our earth years rather than in God's years.
That sounds to me like one giant rationalization, Stir, no offense. "Soon" appears nowhere in the passage. And, in any case, to the Thessolonians, "soon" would mean "right around the corner". Are they idiots enough to buy the proposition that "right around the corner" could be a thousand years from their time? I don't think so.
PS I'm willing to go out on a limb and and say Paul could have said this in the mistaken belief that he had Divine guidance.
That sounds to me like one giant rationalization, Stir, no offense. "Soon" appears nowhere in the passage. And, in any case, to the Thessolonians, "soon" would mean "right around the corner". Are they idiots enough to buy the proposition that "right around the corner" could be a thousand years from their time? I don't think so.
No offense taken, Thrill. Have a good day in the Lord.
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