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Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius....
I'm inclined to believe after reading Josephus, that the second coming is past. IMO especially since Josephus was born around 37 AD and so was only in his 30's when the destruction happened. Also he was sent into the city before it was destroyed to mediate between the Romans and his people the Jews.
Josephus is certainly convincing, it's too bad he's not in the Bible! If he was we'd have to accept his account as the word of God. (Though it's certainly possible that those things actually happened.) What's not right in my opinion is thinking that the Millennium is already here and has been for er more than a thousand years??
You are welcome to your beliefs of course but as for me I will stick to the scriptures, and they show a whole lot of still unfulfilled signs of the times that must happen before Christ returns in glory. Including the wicked being destroyed, the righteous being taken up to meet him at his coming while the earth is cleansed by fire, and the glorious Second Coming itself. None of that has yet happened!
"And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring, O ye hyporcrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?" Matthew 16: 3
There are many signs of the times that must be fulfilled prior to the Second Coming. Before that glorious event Israel must be scattered among many nations and then be gathered. That may already be fulfilled or is being fulfilled, but the gathering, (at least the final one before Armageddon) did not take place in a time when Josephus could record it as history, it probably started about 1948.
"And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.... For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land."Ezekiel 36: 19,24
"And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." Revelation 16: 20-21
GS Signs of the Times
The mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, Isa. 2: 2-3. The Lord shall lift an ensign and gather Israel, Isa. 5: 26 (2 Ne. 15: 26-30). The sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not cause her light to shine, Isa. 13: 10 (Joel 3: 15; D&C 29: 14). Men shall transgress the law and break the everlasting covenant, Isa. 24: 5. The Nephites shall speak as a voice from the dust, Isa. 29: 4 (2 Ne. 27). Israel shall be gathered with power, Isa. 49: 22-23 (1 Ne. 21: 22-23; 3 Ne. 20-21). God shall set up a kingdom which shall not be destroyed, Dan. 2: 44 (D&C 65: 2). War, dreams, and visions shall precede the Second Coming, Joel 2. All nations will gather against Jerusalem to battle, Zech. 14: 2 (Ezek. 38-39). The day cometh that shall burn as an oven, Mal. 4: 1 (3 Ne. 25: 1; D&C 133: 64; JS-H 1: 37). Great calamities shall precede the Second Coming, Matt. 24 (JS-M 1). Paul described apostasy and perilous times of the last days, 2 Tim. 3-4. Two prophets will be slain and resurrected in Jerusalem, Rev. 11 (D&C 77: 15). The gospel shall be restored in the last days by angelic ministry, Rev. 14: 6-7 (D&C 13; 27; 110: 11-16; 128: 8-24). Babylon will be established and fall, Rev. 17-18. Israel shall be gathered with power, 1 Ne. 21: 13-26 (Isa. 49: 13-26; 3 Ne. 20-21). This is a sign, that ye may know the time, 3 Ne. 21: 1. The Book of Mormon shall come forth by the power of God, Morm. 8. Lamanites to blossom, D&C 49: 24-25. The wicked to slay the wicked, D&C 63: 32-35 (Rev. 9). War will be poured out upon all nations, D&C 87: 2. Signs, upheavals of the elements, and angels prepare the way for the coming of the Lord, D&C 88: 86-94. Darkness to cover the earth, D&C 112: 23-24. The Lord commanded the Saints to prepare for the Second Coming, D&C 133.
GS Second Coming of Jesus Christ
At the beginning of the Millennial Era, Christ will return to the earth. This event will mark the end of the mortal probation of this earth. The wicked will be removed from the earth and the righteous will be caught up in a cloud while the earth is cleansed. While no man knows exactly when Christ will come for the second time, he has given us signs to watch for that indicate the time is drawing near (Matt. 24; JS-M 1).
Oh, how about that thousand years of peace where even the lion will eat straw like the ox etc. and with the Savior living on earth at the head of a one world theocratic government? (According to your conclusion that would have had to have taken place during the Dark Ages!) Not to mention the battle at Armageddon and the battle of Gog and Magog to take place at the end of the Millennium which would be long past by now if it started about two thousand years ago according to your reckoning???
Sorry, can't agree with you...
Last edited by justamere10; 09-26-2009 at 09:10 PM..
No, I'm not kidding you. What do you mean by your "imminency" remark? (FYI, I know what the word means, but what did you mean when you said it? Are you referring to some doctrinal belief which you apparently believe I hold to?
Josephus is certainly convincing, it's too bad he's not in the Bible! If he was we'd have to accept his account as the word of God. (Though it's certainly possible that those things actually happened.) What's not right in my opinion is thinking that the Millennium is already here and has been for er more than a thousand years??
Josephus was there! What do you mean we don't have to accept his account? He fought the Romans, was captured and shown favor. He, a Jew, was sent into the city during the siege to mediate.. He was a historian in that day and tells first hand knowledge of what happened.
The Millennium is comprised of what?
Rev. 20: 4-6
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
"The crime alleged against the Christians at this period was that they were atheists, simply because they refused to acknowledge or worship the gods of the heathen, or even throw a grain of incense on one of their altars. And as Christians had neither temples, nor altars, nor sacrifices, it was taken for granted that they worshiped no god, were haters of the gods, and could be nothing better than atheists." S. Hassel Chapter VIII - The Destruction of Jerusalem-The Three Periods of the Apostolic Age-The Book of Revelation.
These Christians are those that did not worship the beast nor his idol nor took the mark. These are the ones who were beheaded for their belief. Yet you wish to make this about your generation. Josephus records that all the nations surrounding Jerusalem were at war with them.
Quote:
You are welcome to your beliefs of course but as for me I will stick to the scriptures, and they show a whole lot of still unfulfilled signs of the times that must happen before Christ returns in glory. Including the wicked being destroyed, the righteous being taken up to meet him at his coming while the earth is cleansed by fire, and the glorious Second Coming itself. None of that has yet happened!
It did. It all happened. See the article above.
Quote:
"And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring, O ye hyporcrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?" Matthew 16: 3
There are many signs of the times that must be fulfilled prior to the Second Coming. Before that glorious event Israel must be scattered among many nations and then be gathered. That may already be fulfilled or is being fulfilled, but the gathering, (at least the final one before Armageddon) did not take place in a time when Josephus could record it as history, it probably started about 1948.
Have you not heard of the diaspora? "The diaspora is commonly accepted to have begun with the 8th-6th century BCE conquests of the ancient Jewish kingdoms of Israel and Judah, destruction of the First Temple, and expulsion of the Jewish population..." Jewish diaspora - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Jews were being gathered back in Jesus' day! And then mosaic economy was utterly destroyed.
Quote:
"And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.... For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land."Ezekiel 36: 19,24
"And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." Revelation 16: 20-21
GS Signs of the Times
The mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, Isa. 2: 2-3. The Lord shall lift an ensign and gather Israel, Isa. 5: 26 (2 Ne. 15: 26-30). The sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not cause her light to shine, Isa. 13: 10 (Joel 3: 15; D&C 29: 14). Men shall transgress the law and break the everlasting covenant, Isa. 24: 5. The Nephites shall speak as a voice from the dust, Isa. 29: 4 (2 Ne. 27). Israel shall be gathered with power, Isa. 49: 22-23 (1 Ne. 21: 22-23; 3 Ne. 20-21). God shall set up a kingdom which shall not be destroyed, Dan. 2: 44 (D&C 65: 2). War, dreams, and visions shall precede the Second Coming, Joel 2. All nations will gather against Jerusalem to battle, Zech. 14: 2 (Ezek. 38-39). The day cometh that shall burn as an oven, Mal. 4: 1 (3 Ne. 25: 1; D&C 133: 64; JS-H 1: 37). Great calamities shall precede the Second Coming, Matt. 24 (JS-M 1). Paul described apostasy and perilous times of the last days, 2 Tim. 3-4. Two prophets will be slain and resurrected in Jerusalem, Rev. 11 (D&C 77: 15). The gospel shall be restored in the last days by angelic ministry, Rev. 14: 6-7 (D&C 13; 27; 110: 11-16; 128: 8-24). Babylon will be established and fall, Rev. 17-18. Israel shall be gathered with power, 1 Ne. 21: 13-26 (Isa. 49: 13-26; 3 Ne. 20-21). This is a sign, that ye may know the time, 3 Ne. 21: 1. The Book of Mormon shall come forth by the power of God, Morm. 8. Lamanites to blossom, D&C 49: 24-25. The wicked to slay the wicked, D&C 63: 32-35 (Rev. 9). War will be poured out upon all nations, D&C 87: 2. Signs, upheavals of the elements, and angels prepare the way for the coming of the Lord, D&C 88: 86-94. Darkness to cover the earth, D&C 112: 23-24. The Lord commanded the Saints to prepare for the Second Coming, D&C 133.
GS Second Coming of Jesus Christ
At the beginning of the Millennial Era, Christ will return to the earth. This event will mark the end of the mortal probation of this earth. The wicked will be removed from the earth and the righteous will be caught up in a cloud while the earth is cleansed. While no man knows exactly when Christ will come for the second time, he has given us signs to watch for that indicate the time is drawing near (Matt. 24; JS-M 1).
Oh, how about that thousand years of peace where even the lion will eat straw like the ox etc. and with the Savior living on earth at the head of a one world theocratic government? (According to your conclusion that would have had to have taken place during the Dark Ages!) Not to mention the battle at Armageddon and the battle of Gog and Magog to take place at the end of the Millennium which would be long past by now if it started about two thousand years ago according to your reckoning???
Sorry, can't agree with you...
The millennium started the day Christ rose again to be with the Father. Reigning at his right hand. The millennium continued for about 40 years then all heck broke loose. Again if you read Josephus or the website I listed you will see that there is so many parallel things:
"Milman says that the Romans might easily have made themselves masters of the city of Jerusalem: and it was to the universal surprise that Cestius called off his troops. Though the war continued, Jerusalem was not besieged again till April, A.D. 70. During this interval of about two years and a half the Christians in Jerusalem, remembering Christ’s words of warning (Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14; Luke 21:21), fled beyond the Jordan to Pella, in the north of Perea, in the mountains of Gilead, some sixty miles northeast of Jerusalem, where king Herod Agrippa II. opened to them a safe asylum; and thus they escaped the horrors of the final siege of Jerusalem." Chapter VIII - The Destruction of Jerusalem-The Three Periods of the Apostolic Age-The Book of Revelation.
Josephus was there! What do you mean we don't have to accept his account? He fought the Romans, was captured and shown favor. He, a Jew, was sent into the city during the siege to mediate.. He was a historian in that day and tells first hand knowledge of what happened. It did. It all happened. See the article above.
Have you not heard of the diaspora? "The diaspora is commonly accepted to have begun with the 8th-6th century BCE conquests of the ancient Jewish kingdoms of Israel and Judah, destruction of the First Temple, and expulsion of the Jewish population..." The Jews were being gathered back in Jesus' day! And then mosaic economy was utterly destroyed.
The millennium started the day Christ rose again to be with the Father. Reigning at his right hand. The millennium continued for about 40 years then all heck broke loose.....
It seems to be a matter of who do you put your trust in, the inspired writers and prophets of the Bible, or a Jewish historian who was not even a member of the Church of Jesus Christ?
Here's a quote from your own reference to Josephus:
"Flavius Josephus, a Jewish priest and Pharisee, was put in command of the national resistance in Galilee at the time of Israel's revolt against Rome. When he was captured at Jotapata; his life was spared upon his prediction to rival Vespasian, that the Roman general would soon become emperor. Upon the fulfillment of this prophecy shortly thereafter, he was commissioned to provide his captors with a history of the Jewish people, although he initially wrote a history of the Roman-Jewish war suited for both a Roman and a Jewish audience.His works, disputed though they may be regard accuracy, are an indispensable source on the life and history in Roman Judea."
"As for the impiety of which Josephus accused (John of Gischala), it stems to some extent from the fact that John, like many others, gave a favorable interpretation to the Scriptural prophecies, whereas Josephus saw them as foretelling the ruin of Jerusalem" (Louis H. Feldman, Josephus, the Bible and History, p. 234)"
Your quotes in post 50 do not confirm that Josephus was an eyewitness of the visions people saw in the clouds, which is what you are dwelling on, only that he was reporting what other people had seen. But it matters not, we know that hard times took place in Jerusalem many times and that the city was destroyed after the death of the Savior as he had prophesied would happen. I was once told when in Jerusalem that the city was not only leveled, but that earth was hauled in to cover the rubble.
Yes, the Jews have been defeated and driven from Jerusalem several times already, and many returned, that's why I included in my remarks that the prophecy being discussed was about the final gathering to Jerusalem/Israel, which is taking place in our time.
Let's go to the record in the books of the Bible, commonly accepted among Christians as the inspired word of God.
Jesus prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem after his death, that's what Josephus recorded.
"And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." Mark 13: 2
Quite frankly, with respect, I find your belief that the Millennium is already behind us astonishing. You'd have to ignore a huge amount of scripture to validly accept such an idea, place the Millennium taking place and Satan bound during the Dark Ages, the battle of Gog and Magog behind, the "rapture" behind, the destruction of the wicked behind, the baptism of the earth by fire behind, the glorious Second Coming behind, and this world and us already resurrected and celestialized!
You write: "The millennium started the day Christ rose again to be with the Father. Reigning at his right hand. The millennium continued for about 40 years then all heck broke loose. Again if you read Josephus or the website I listed you will see that there is so many parallel things:"
The Millennium is described as a one thousand year of peace on this earth during which Satan is banished and cannot tempt God's children on earth. The Millennium is NOT described as 40 years and then hell breaks loose! And the beginning of the Millennium is the Lord descending from the sky, not his ascension. You are describing the prophesied destruction of Jerusalem, not the Millennium.
But let's take a look at just one or two of a whole bunch of those scriptures that you are ignoring:
Rev. 20: 2-7
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Isa. 11: 6-9
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
And that all ended according to your belief about 1033 A.D.? Where is the HISTORY written of the Millennium? Surely such an incredible change in the history of this world would have been recorded.
It seems to be a matter of who do you put your trust in, the inspired writers and prophets of the Bible, or a Jewish historian who was not even a member of the Church of Jesus Christ?.
Good question.....
the Bible
Jewish historian
Joseph Smith & LDS...BOM, D&C
Answer...The Bible is sufficient John 20:30-31 "Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."
No other revelations needed to have eternal life. How inspired!
__________________________________________________ ______ John 14:6
"Jesus answered, "I amthe way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Jesus is the way.....not a church, organization or a person who needed to restore something. How inspired! __________________________________________________ _
Faith is the gate to eternal life....not works, or all you can do
John 10:1
[ The Shepherd and His Flock ] "I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.
How inspired!
__________________________________________________ ___________
What is the inspired message that John10:1 which the gate is based on?
1 Corinthians 1:23 "but wepreachChristcrucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,"
How inspired! ________________________________________________
What about other gospels? Galations 1:7-9
"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"
How inspired and inspiring! __________________________________________________ _ John 6:28
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
.John 6:29
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
1 John 5:2
This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands
John 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
This is how we know who speaks the truth....How inspired __________________________________________________
John 3:18 Whoeverbelieves in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has notbelieved in the name of God's one and only Son.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Jesus is the truth .....................How inspired __________________________________________________
It seems to be a matter of who do you put your trust in, the inspired writers and prophets of the Bible, or a Jewish historian who was not even a member of the Church of Jesus Christ?
It's not a matter of trust. The bible is a book of recorded events written by people that did not have first hand knowledge of the events. It is no better than that written by historians such as Josephus and the early church fathers. They must all be taken into account. It is the history of the Gospel from whatever sources you want to use. In order to see the days of Christ you must read the histories! If you don't know what happened then, you will never be able to see what terrible things occurred and understand why the apostles taught what they did! Using other sources is not about trust. It is about the evidence they give as to the times the Bible was written about. If you cannot use secular writings to study history (which the bible is) then you are close minded and will never be open to the truth.
Quote:
Here's a quote from your own reference to Josephus:
"Flavius Josephus, a Jewish priest and Pharisee, was put in command of the national resistance in Galilee at the time of Israel's revolt against Rome. When he was captured at Jotapata; his life was spared upon his prediction to rival Vespasian, that the Roman general would soon become emperor. Upon the fulfillment of this prophecy shortly thereafter, he was commissioned to provide his captors with a history of the Jewish people, although he initially wrote a history of the Roman-Jewish war suited for both a Roman and a Jewish audience.His works, disputed though they may be regard accuracy, are an indispensable source on the life and history in Roman Judea."
He wrote to the Roman and Jewish audience because that is who was in the war! Why would he bother with Christians when it was the war in Jerusalem and the Jews were fighting not the Christians! They are "an indispensable source on the life and history in Roman Judea" (the time of the bible).
Quote:
"As for the impiety of which Josephus accused (John of Gischala), it stems to some extent from the fact that John, like many others, gave a favorable interpretation to the Scriptural prophecies, whereas Josephus saw them as foretelling the ruin of Jerusalem" (Louis H. Feldman, Josephus, the Bible and History, p. 234)"
Josephus' focus was on his people, the Jews. He didn't have the NT, the scriptural prophecies were from the OT.
Quote:
Your quotes in post 50 do not confirm that Josephus was an eyewitness of the visions people saw in the clouds, which is what you are dwelling on, only that he was reporting what other people had seen. But it matters not, we know that hard times took place in Jerusalem many times and that the city was destroyed after the death of the Savior as he had prophesied would happen. I was once told when in Jerusalem that the city was not only leveled, but that earth was hauled in to cover the rubble.
Yes, the Jews have been defeated and driven from Jerusalem several times already, and many returned, that's why I included in my remarks that the prophecy being discussed was about the final gathering to Jerusalem/Israel, which is taking place in our time.
It really doesn't matter to me what was seen in the clouds. I take that as figurative anyway. I am not focusing on anything other than the fact that you cannot prove the future without the past. In other words, in order for you to prove that there is a future coming.. it would have to be past. I have to prove the past but you won't accept the use of history? That is ridiculous!
Quote:
Let's go to the record in the books of the Bible, commonly accepted among Christians as the inspired word of God.
Jesus prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem after his death, that's what Josephus recorded.
"And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." Mark 13: 2
Ok got it... yes the city being leveled was fulfilled.
Quote:
Quite frankly, with respect, I find your belief that the Millennium is already behind us astonishing. You'd have to ignore a huge amount of scripture to validly accept such an idea, place the Millennium taking place and Satan bound during the Dark Ages, the battle of Gog and Magog behind, the "rapture" behind, the destruction of the wicked behind, the baptism of the earth by fire behind, the glorious Second Coming behind, and this world and us already resurrected and celestialized!
See, herein lies the problem. You have a literal view of the end times and a spiritual view of Christ. I have a spiritual view of the end times and a spiritual view of Christ. We disagree because you somehow think that the kingdom of heaven/God will be the end of the world but it is really the beginning. Satan was bound so that the word of God could be spread... It was spread in the disciples day. (btw-People that are alive are not resurrected and there is no proof found in the bible that says people will not die). Do you have any idea who Gog and Magog represent?
It seems that if you put more effort into getting to know the history of Israel you would see that Revelations is figurative and there will be no physical destruction of earth by fire.
Rev. 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
The water of life is the gift of salvation not an actual river!
Quote:
You write: "The millennium started the day Christ rose again to be with the Father. Reigning at his right hand. The millennium continued for about 40 years then all heck broke loose. Again if you read Josephus or the website I listed you will see that there is so many parallel things:"
The Millennium is described as a one thousand year of peace on this earth during which Satan is banished and cannot tempt God's children on earth. The Millennium is NOT described as 40 years and then hell breaks loose! And the beginning of the Millennium is the Lord descending from the sky, not his ascension. You are describing the prophesied destruction of Jerusalem, not the Millennium.
The destruction of the city is during the SHORT time satan is loosed; "After that, he must be set free for a short time. " (Rev. 20). The millennium is long (thousand years figuratively, 40 years really) and the reign of satan is short (not given specific length other than compared to the millennium which is long, but in the histories the destruction took about 4 years which is short compared to the 40)
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But let's take a look at just one or two of a whole bunch of those scriptures that you are ignoring:
Rev. 20: 2-7
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Who lived with Christ... the disciples... who reigned with Christ... the disciples. There is no reason to think otherwise. I am not ignoring these scriptures.
Quote:
Isa. 11: 6-9
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
Many before you have thought that the lion was a lion and the cow an actual cow. However, if that is so then the lamb must also just be an actual lamb... the lamb is representative of Christ yet you believe lions will actually be changed from their carnivore nature to become herbivores?
YIKES!
Quote:
And that all ended according to your belief about 1033 A.D.? Where is the HISTORY written of the Millennium? Surely such an incredible change in the history of this world would have been recorded.
Again... "Nobody can know that the “thousand years” mentioned is a literal thousand years. It may possibly signify a long period of time. When a preacher speculates with figurative language, making it literal, and tries to interpret prophecy before it is ever fulfilled and makes positive statements concerning such, you may be assured he does not know what he is talking about."http://www.tftw2.org/Tracts/1000years.htm (broken link)
And I agree. If your 1000 years are not taken literally then your whole theory collapses.
It's not a matter of trust. The bible is a book of recorded events written by people that did not have first hand knowledge of the events. .
Really?
Moses didn't have first hand knowledge of Exodus....
or King David of Psalms
King Solomon of Proverbs
or the Prophet Isaiah on the book of Isaiah,
the prophets Hosea, Joel, Jonah,
or Daniel
or Joshua,
Matthew didn't write Matthew?
Apostle Mark didn't first hand knowledge when he wrote Mark?
Luke didn't first hand knowledge when he wrote Luke?
John didn't first hand knowledge when he wrote John?
James didn't first hand knowledge when he wrote James?
Apostle John didn't first hand knowledge when he wrote Revelation?
Peter didn't first hand knowledge when he wrote 1 @ 2 Peter
Paul didn't have first hand knowledge when he wrote to the churches that he founded in Romans (Rome), Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians...or when he wrote to Timothy?
Get real. Paul even says that he penned them....
2 Thessalonians 3:17
I, Paul, write this greeting in my own hand, which is the distinguishing mark in all my letters. This is how I write.
Philippians 3:1
Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you.
Philemon 1:21
Confident of your obedience, I write to you
Kat,
It is no wonder why you put all your hope upon UR. You challange God's Word at almost every chance you have, you don't believe Jesus is who he claims himself to be, and you deny who God is. You're always demanding proof, never listening to sound doctrine, deny Christ and God of their rights to be the judge.....yet you think you're christian. ...... what else but can it be but this.
2Thessalonians 2:11
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
I should understand this, like you UR's say....God does what he wills.
Preterists, UR's .....you're right. All means all........."all will be condemned who have not believed the truth"
Last edited by twin.spin; 09-27-2009 at 05:42 PM..
And I agree. If your 1000 years are not taken literally then your whole theory collapses.
Ok, I see that we remain worlds apart with our beliefs and are not likely to get much closer. I will continue to watch the signs of the times appear and unfold and will continue to look for the glorious Second Coming of Jesus Christ, knowing that the prophesied Millennium will follow that event as the resurrected Savior remains and reigns on this planet for a thousand years.
....Paul didn't have first hand knowledge when he wrote to the churches that he founded in Romans (Rome), Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians...or when he wrote to Timothy?....
Ok, I see that we remain worlds apart with our beliefs and are not likely to get much closer. I will continue to watch the signs of the times appear and unfold and will continue to look for the glorious Second Coming of Jesus Christ, knowing that the prophesied Millennium will follow that event as the resurrected Savior remains and reigns on this planet for a thousand years.
I wish you the very best kat...
You too, justamere, I wish you the very best. It was a very lovely discussion. I am sure will will have many awesome discussions in the future and I look forward to it. I can tell that even though we differ in respect to the second coming you are very much a follower of God.
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