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Okay, there's some things I can find agreement with you about. Other things I'd need more clarification on but I don't have much time since we're leaving in a few minutes. One question for sure that I'd like to ask is still concerning judgment. Do you believe that those unbelievers who are physically alive now will face judgment and the Lake of Fire after their physical deaths, or do you believe that is something they are enduring in the present time? And, a second question is if you believe the Bible addresses at all what our existance will be like in the after life or not?
Yes, I believe that unbelievers who die physically as unbelievers will face judgment in the Lake of Fire...there may also be believers that face the same judgment after physical death...it all depends on how much we overcome in life. We will all be salted with fire, whether here in this life or after...sin cannot enter into the presence of God so we have to be cleansed of it all. You have to keep in mind that the Lake of Fire is not "Hell" or endless torment...it is a corrective judgment used to purify us of all sin and carnality that is left in us and it will end at some point...I fully believe that the correction we receive and the length of it will fit our crimes, so to speak.
I don't find that the Bible addresses what our experience will be like where God is...we call it Heaven...no one really knows what that is, there is just a lot of speculation about the place. Jesus says we will be like the angels. I do know that we will be with the Lord and that is the most important aspect to me...I imagine that we cannot, in our wildest imaginations, imagine how wonderful it will be.
Hope this helps!
Last edited by ChristyGrl; 09-26-2009 at 07:39 AM..
Yes, I believe that unbelievers who die physically as unbelievers will face judgment in the Lake of Fire...there may also be believers that face the same judgment after physical death...it all depends on how much we overcome in life. We will all be salted with fire, whether here in this life or after...sin cannot enter into the presence of God so we have to be cleansed of it all. You have to keep in mind that the Lake of Fire is not "Hell" or enless torment...it is a corrective judgment used to purify us of all sin and carnality that is left in us and it will end at some point...I fully believe that the correction we receive and the length of it will fit our crimes, so to speak.
I don't find that the Bible address what our experience will be like where God is...we call it Heaven...no one really knows what that is, there is just a lot of speculation about the place. Jesus says we will be like the angels. I do know that we will be with the Lord and that is the most important aspect to me...I imagine that we cannot, in our wildest imaginations, imagine how wonderful it will be.
Hope this helps!
It does help actually. Seems to me you believe much the same as I do in many regards. I tend to believe that the LOF is Christ (including His Body). If that is true then those believers who "receive the inheritance" are taking part in "ruling" and "ministering judgment" (God's judgment, which is for the purpose of bringing unbelievers to belief in Christ and for saving all of us from out of our sin) upon those who have not yet been made whole and pure. That should be happening in the here and now as the Church ministers God's love to the world in this physical realm, and it continues for those who have physically died. Some URists believe, I think, that the LOF is something that happens in a future time. I personally think it is happening even now, both in this realm and in the realm of those who have "fallen asleep" and been resurrected, and will continue as long as necessary.
I guess the difference between us would be that I believe 1 Cor 15:24-28 has not yet been fulfilled and that there is a finality to all of this, when God is all in all. How exactly that will come about, I don't know, but I don't believe this world goes on indefinitely.
It does help actually. Seems to me you believe much the same as I do in many regards. I tend to believe that the LOF is Christ (including His Body). If that is true then those believers who "receive the inheritance" are taking part in "ruling" and "ministering judgment" (God's judgment, which is for the purpose of bringing unbelievers to belief in Christ and for saving all of us from out of our sin) upon those who have not yet been made whole and pure. That should be happening in the here and now as the Church ministers to the world in this physical realm, and it continues for those who have physically died. Some URists believe, I think, that the LOF is something that happens in a future time. I personally think it is happening even now, both in this realm and in the realm of those who have "fallen asleep" and been resurrected, and will continue as long as necessary.
I guess the difference between us would be that I believe 1 Cor 15:24-28 has not yet been fulfilled and that there is a finality to all of this, when God is all in all. How exactly that will come about, I don't know, but I don't believe this world goes on indefinitely.
No, I don't believe the body of Christ is the Lake of Fire...the Lake of Fire/Second Death experience for believers are the trials and testing we go through in life on this earth...that comes from God. We are tried in the fires of life in the here and now. As we crucify our old man in this life we are made more into the image of God, from glory to glory. This is why the second death cannot hurt us, because we walk with God and depend and trust on Him to see us through it. Unbelievers don't have this luxury and I imagine the second death, for them, can in this life and after be a very painful experience. We can either take the narrow road or the broad road but we will all be salted with fire...no one escapes that.
I have not found anything in scripture that would lead me to believe God will end this physical world...His word says the opposite. Does that mean that we won't destroy ourselves in some fashion...only God knows. We aren't very good stewards when it comes to way we abuse our planet but I think we are seeing the affects of our abuse and we may correct it before it is too late.
Why do you feel that God being all and in all has to happen on the physical planet? I don't see in God's word where He says this has to be accomplished on the physical planet. Does that mean it will never happen on the physical planet...only time will tell. I believe God is all and in all eventually, whether it happens on this planet, one person at a time, or after physical death. We will all be reconciled to God...that is His plan and we know that He will accomplish it.
The infamous 1 Thess. "rapture" passage. Let's take another look at it:
Bolded verse 15 paraphrased: "Now I have this on direct authority from God Himself what I am about to say to you." Paul is about to lay his entire reputation as a prophet and man of God on the line. Remember the OT warning, "If a prophet prophecies a thing and it does not come to pass he is a false prophet and shall be stoned."
17 "Then 'we' [you good folks of Thessolonia, myself, and all Christians alive today in this 1st century] which are alive will be lifted into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Paul assures the Thessolonians that HE and they will take part in this great event.
Now several questions arise from this simple statement. Please consider them carefully and see if Paul committed the biggest blunder of the Christians era, or did he foist the biggest lie in the history of man onto the Christian community:
Question #1:
Is Paul talking about a literal lifting in the air of physical bodies which then change to glorified, OR is he speaking of a spiritual change in our "inner" bodies (souls)?
Question #2:
Was Paul referring to a future event or one that would take place in his day?
*If future, why did Paul word the passage in such a way that the Thessolonians could only interpret it to mean that they were to be the recipients of this glorious event. That would have been purely deceitful on Paul's part. That Paul falsely included himself in this passage only adds to the deceit, giving the Thessolonians false hope that he himself would be there to accompany them to heaven.
*If present, why didn't the rapture take place. What must Paul have been thinking when, 10 or 15 years later, the rapture never happened and he was under the axman's blade? Possibly, "Huh"? Wa Hoppon?"
Question #3:
If Paul was speaking of a spiritual lifting up of souls to God when they receive Jesus, did the Thessolonians understand that Paul was speaking of spiritual matters and not a physical change?
Question #4
If the Thessolonians didn't understand this was to be a spiritual change then why didn't Paul correct their misunderstanding and say to them plainly, "Hey, you guys are misunderstanding me. I'm not speaking of a physical translation; I'm speaking of a spiritual one."
Again, in a nutshell: if Paul was speaking of a physical rapture in his lifetime, and he had it on direct authority from God that this rapture was going to occur in his lifetime, then why did he die under an axman's blade years later?
I'd appreciate your best answers from futurists and preterists alike so we can determine if Paul is either the most misunderstood apostle in the Bible or the most egregious.
How about we look at what God has to say about Paul?
Eph. 1:1 ¶ Paul, an *apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
*apostle means one sent by God
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel.
I don't know about the rest of you, but that settles it for me.
It also settled it for the Lord:
Ac 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
Ac 22:10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
It also settled it for Peter:
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto himhath written unto you;
Peter not only calls Paul a 'brother,' but a beloved brother and points out Paul has wisdom.
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Be carefully everyone that you are not one of those who twist Paul's teachings to be something he didn't write/say.
Also note Peter referred to Paul's teachings as Scripture.
It settled it for the early church:
Ga 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, (Paul)they gave to me (Paul) and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
The pillars of the church, those who had been taught by Christ Himself, gave Paul the right hand of fellowship, and sent him to preach. Would they have done this if Paul's teachings went against what Christ had taught them? I think not.
So to recap. Christ appeared to him on the road to Damascus, God sent him (Paul), Peter approved of him and the church gave him their approval.
Hey that's good enough for me!!
Edited to add: Be real careful everyone who you speak against. Remember God said, "Touch not my anointed!
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Last edited by mshipmate; 09-26-2009 at 09:18 AM..
No, I don't believe the body of Christ is the Lake of Fire
I didn't think you did. I was just sharing my thoughts.
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...the Lake of Fire/Second Death experience for believers are the trials and testing we go through in life on this earth...that comes from God. We are tried in the fires of life in the here and now. As we crucify our old man in this life we are made more into the image of God, from glory to glory. This is why the second death cannot hurt us, because we walk with God and depend and trust on Him to see us through it. Unbelievers don't have this luxury and I imagine the second death, for them, can in this life and after be a very painful experience.
I don't disagree that trials and testings are all part of the process.
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We can either take the narrow road or the broad road but we will all be salted with fire...no one escapes that.
Nor do I disagree with this.
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I have not found anything in scripture that would lead me to believe God will end this physical world...His word says the opposite. Does that mean that we won't destroy ourselves in some fashion...only God knows. We aren't very good stewards when it comes to way we abuse our planet but I think we are seeing the affects of our abuse and we may correct it before it is too late.
The Bible does speak of the world passing away. 1 Jn 2:17 comes to mind. Could that be a reference to spiritual things only? I certainly can't prove otherwise, but I tend to think not.
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Why do you feel that God being all and in all has to happen on the physical planet? I don't see in God's word where He says this has to be accomplished on the physical planet. Does that mean it will never happen on the physical planet...only time will tell. I believe God is all and in all eventually, whether it happens on this planet, one person at a time, or after physical death. We will all be reconciled to God...that is His plan and we know that He will accomplish it.
I don't think it all has to happen on the physical planet. I've already said I believe it is happening in the spiritual realm as well. But ALL IN ALL indicates a finality to me, a completeness. If sin and death continue on this earth as they do now, that to me is not a complete fulfillment of 1 Cor. Again, just my thoughts.
The Bible does speak of the world passing away. 1 Jn 2:17 comes to mind. Could that be a reference to spiritual things only? I certainly can't prove otherwise, but I tend to think not.
I don't think it all has to happen on the physical planet. I've already said I believe it is happening in the spiritual realm as well. But ALL IN ALL indicates a finality to me, a completeness. If sin and death continue on this earth as they do now, that to me is not a complete fulfillment of 1 Cor. Again, just my thoughts.
The world John was speaking of that was passing away was the Judaic world with all its elements (not the literal, physical world) that was about to end, that is why John told them it was the last hour...always remember the audience that is being spoken to and the context to which the NT pertains to...you can't go wrong if you do this. It's when we try to place these events in 21st century that we go into left field.
God being ALL IN ALL happens progressively and I can't see how it will ever end...as people are born each day, this is progressively happening. New believers are being called throughout the ages...like I said, I don't find anything in scripture that says the ages ever end. Does this mean that they won't...nope. I know that there are secret things of God that we will never know...He only reveals to us what we need to know to live our lives in Him...and contrary to what some people think...we don't know everything. We do know this...God will work it all out and it will fulfill His purposes.
The world John was speaking of that was passing away was the Judaic world with all its elements (not the literal, physical world) that was about to end, that is why John told them it was the last hour...always remember the audience that is being spoken to and the context to which the NT pertains to...you can't go wrong if you do this. It's when we try to place these events in 21st century that we go into left field.
Can't say I agree that the context of that 1 John passage would lead me to think he is speaking of the Judaic world. He says very specifically that the things of the world are: the desires of the flesh and of the eyes, and the pride of life. That does not seem to me to be speaking of the Judaic world, but the world at large, as it is a direct reference back to Adam and Eve (all mankind, not just the Jews, are "in Adam") in the Garden. I would be much more inclined to see this as a passing away of these spiritual things and not necessarily the physical world, but am not convinced of that either. But, for sure, I don't see that as speaking of the Judaic order of things.
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God being ALL IN ALL happens progressively and I can't see how it will ever end...as people are born each day, this is progressively happening. New believers are being called throughout the ages...like I said, I don't find anything in scripture that says the ages ever end. Does this mean that they won't...nope.
We just lean in opposite directions on this particular point, and that's fine.
Quote:
I know that there are secret things of God that we will never know...He only reveals to us what we need to know to live our lives in Him...and contrary to what some people think...we don't know everything. We do know this...God will work it all out and it will fulfill His purposes.
Can't say I agree that the context of that 1 John passage would lead me to think he is speaking of the Judaic world. He says very specifically that the things of the world are: the desires of the flesh and of the eyes, and the pride of life. That does not seem to me to be speaking of the Judaic world, but the world at large, as it is a direct reference back to Adam and Eve (all mankind, not just the Jews, are "in Adam") in the Garden. I would be much more inclined to see this as a passing away of these spiritual things and not necessarily the physical world, but am not convinced of that either. But, for sure, I don't see that as speaking of the Judaic order of things.
We just lean in opposite directions on this particular point, and that's fine.
And on that we are in full agreement.
I'll give you that because you could take that scripture either way. As we die those things do pass away...but I definitely don't think he's speaking of the physical world.
It's OK for us to have questions and doubts about what others see in scripture...these things do no affect our salvation just because you don't see as I do. And contrary to what others think, this doesn't mean we aren't brothers and sister in Christ. I am open minded enough to dig for the answers but that doesn't mean I am 100% correct...we all have to find the truth for ourselves.
"If Paul was speaking of a physical rapture, and he was assuring the Thessolonians that it would happen in their lifetimes, and the wording of the text makes it abundantly clear that he had this on direct authority from God that this "rapture" was going to occur in their lifetimes, then why did he die under an axman's blade years later?"
When we are trying to better mutually understand scriptures, I think it is important to get as much context as possible into the discussion. For example if we think Paul meant one thing in one verse of scripture, we could profitably examine other pertinent verses that he wrote to see if that one thing we think, might actually be just a mistake in our own interpretation.
Following that suggestion, here's something pertinent that Paul had to say elsewhere:
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: forthat day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-3
It seems clear in the above quote that Paul did not expect the "second" coming to be soon. Prior to that event he prophesied that there would be an apostasy from the pure doctrines he and the other apostles were teaching, the church with its foundation of revelation and living apostles would be lost. (That's how I see it in the broader context.)
Here are the verses currently being discussed as they appear in the King James version, with my own admittedly arbitrary comments from additional study sources in (brackets):
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede, make progress over) them which are asleep (dead).
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." I Thessalonians 4: 13-17
The chapter context of those verses as I see it is Paul speaking to the saints that they should not sorrow for their departed loved ones, because the dead too (those who lived righteously) will descend with Christ at his coming. In fact, Paul reveals, they will meet the Lord "in the clouds" before those who are still mortal.
So, those "which are alive and remain"IF the second coming arrived during the mortal span of those in Paul's audience, would be preceded by the righteous dead.
As I see it, the whole thing is about the dead, NOT about the "rapture" itself.
It's also possible that those who "remain" could be a reference to translated beings or soon to be translated beings in Paul's audience who have not yet died. It's also possible that "we which are alive and remain unto the coming" simply refers to our spirit bodies that never die; we are all in reality still very much alive even though our physical bodies may be rotting in the grave until the resurrection. It's also possible that somewhere along the line of the original writing, copies of that writing, translations of that writing, possible publishing errors, and the interpretations of scholars and church leaders over the centuries, gross errors crept in unawares (or perhaps some even deliberately.)
And of course as is evident even in this thread there's the matter of our own interpretation of those verses...
Whatever, I do not think that the premise that Paul is promising the Thessalonians that the second coming will be soon is correct, especially in the context of 2 Thess 2: 1-3 where Paul specifically states that he does not expect that event to be soon.
Those are just a few ideas gleaned from other sources and points of view and the workings of the Spirit that I thought I'd post to perhaps elicit a broader range of thought and discussion about this important topic, in particular the o/p's concern that maybe Paul got it all wrong. I don't think he did, I think it's us and all those involved in translations, publishing, interpretations, etc. along the way who often get it wrong...
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: forthat day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-3
It seems clear in the above quote that Paul did not expect the "second" coming to be soon. Prior to that event he prophesied that there would be an apostasy from the pure doctrines he and the other apostles were teaching, the church with its foundation of revelation and living apostles would be lost. (That's how I see it in the broader context.)
I beg to differ on that:
1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
There apparently were rumors and letters floating about saying that the Day of the Lord had already come...Paul knew and understood what had to happen first and let them know this. Paul knew and understood that the Day of the Lord would happen in their lifetime and that is very clear in just about every epistle he wrote.
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I was just sharing my thoughts.
