Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I tend to think that this passage is an ongoing promise to all believers. We can rest assured that those who have fallen asleep before us are already with the Lord since v16 is what happens at the death of every believer. And those of us who are left to mourn those who precede us in death will each, in our turn, be caught up to the Lord at our death to be reunited with those who have gone before us. That's the way I see this passage: not a "rapture" passage, and not a "spiritualized" prophecy either. Just my thoughts.
Since you're a little confused about the futurist view you espouse, let me clear some things up for you.
Hades has not been cleared out yet...this happens at the resurrection when Christ returns...in your view you not only don't go to heaven you also do not have your salvation yet...you are still waiting for Christ's sacrifice to be accepted.
Heb 9:288so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
If Christ has not returned, just as He said He would in the first century, you are still waiting for His return and the resurrection. No one goes to be with the Lord until Hades is cleared out. Do you understand this? This is pretty plain and clear in scripture.
You cannot reap the benefits of a Preterist view and still espouse a Futurist agenda....you have to pick one or the other.
I hear that, Christy. I just wish someone, ANYONE would definitively refute my original assertion, "If Paul was speaking of a physical rapture, and he was assuring the Thessolonians that it would happen in their lifetimes, and the wording of the text makes it abundantly clear that he had this on direct authority from God that this "rapture" was going to occur in their lifetimes, then why did he die under an axman's blade years later?"
Since you're a little confused about the futurist view you espouse, let me clear some things up for you.
No doubt, I could be confused, although I don't think so. I'm just sharing what I believe the Lord has impressed upon me.
Quote:
Hades has not been cleared out yet...this happens at the resurrection when Christ returns...in your view you not only don't go to heaven you also do not have your salvation yet...you are still waiting for Christ's sacrifice to be accepted.
Heb 9:288so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
Christ, imho, according to Hebrews 9 appeared a FIRST time IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES as our high priest and the sacrifice for our sins. The sacrifice has been accepted, so no, I am not waiting for that. And He has appeared a SECOND time in the heavenly places to bring that salvation to completion. He is in the process of saving us each from our sin, putting that sin away from us through His judgments within our lives in the here and now, as He "sits" on His heavenly throne and also "comes" to us.
Quote:
If Christ has not returned, just as He said He would in the first century, you are still waiting for His return and the resurrection. No one goes to be with the Lord until Hades is cleared out. Do you understand this? This is pretty plain and clear in scripture.
Christ has returned, He returns, and He will return. Nowhere are we told that there are only 2 comings of Christ.
Quote:
You cannot reap the benefits of a Preterist view and still espouse a Futurist agenda....you have to pick one or the other.
I believe I am.
Last edited by Pleroo; 09-25-2009 at 12:38 PM..
Reason: adding for clarification, hopefully
Why, this is so easy to understand that I don't understand why anyone wouldn't be able to understand it!
Paul knew that no matter how long it took for Jesus to come back, there would be other believers over the years, and those who would still be alive and remaining on the earth would be caught up at the second coming.
The "we" simply means "those of us who belong to Jesus" who are still on earth when it happens. It's so simple.
Why, this is so easy to understand that I don't understand why anyone wouldn't be able to understand it!
Paul knew that no matter how long it took for Jesus to come back, there would be other believers over the years, and those who would still be alive and remaining on the earth would be caught up at the second coming.
The "we" simply means "those of us who belong to Jesus" who are still on earth when it happens. It's so simple.
...the Thessaloninans understood what Paul was saying, I am sure of. Too bad many today don't.
Please explain what the Thessaloninans understood, sciota. I am one of many today who don't understand what he was saying. That's why I posed the question.
I hear that, Christy. I just wish someone, ANYONE would definitively refute my original assertion, "If Paul was speaking of a physical rapture, and he was assuring the Thessolonians that it would happen in their lifetimes, and the wording of the text makes it abundantly clear that he had this on direct authority from God that this "rapture" was going to occur in their lifetimes, then why did he die under an axman's blade years later?"
2 Tim 2:17....Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.
How could this have upset the people of the first century if they thought their physical bodies would be lifted in the air to be with Christ?
It upset them because they understood that this was spiritual and not physical...unlike some today.
Why, this is so easy to understand that I don't understand why anyone wouldn't be able to understand it!
Paul knew that no matter how long it took for Jesus to come back, there would be other believers over the years, and those who would still be alive and remaining on the earth would be caught up at the second coming.
The "we" simply means "those of us who belong to Jesus" who are still on earth when it happens. It's so simple.
I think you're failing to put yourselves in the shoes of the Thessolonians. Picture it: the Thessolonians are distraught--I mean really upset to the point of suicide or falling away from the faith because they think their loved ones have been lost forever when they die. Hence:
Quote:
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
paraphrased, "Don't be sorry for your loved ones who have died, guys, like all the heathen who sorrow."
Quote:
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
paraphrased, "Because if Jesus died and arose, then so will they."
At this point Paul has given absolutely no time-frame to the Thessolonians. So naturally, being human, they're going to think, "WOW, so I'm going to see my loved ones again. Probably real soon."
Quote:
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Paraphrased, "The Lord told me directly that you guys are not going to be raptured before they are."
Quote:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Paraphrased, "The Lord's going to come down, raise your loved ones first and then you guys, me, and all the Christians alive right now will rise with them to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him forever."
Quote:
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Paraphrased, "Guys, don't worry. You're going to see your loved ones again very soon. So comfort yourselves with this promise."
I see nothing in there about Paul implying this could happen today or thousands of years from now. And if they did understand that Paul meant today or thousands of years from now, how would that be any comfort to newly-converted Christians who still had holds on their former pagan beliefs? Any level-headed Thessolonian would have automatically assumed Paul was speaking of the here and now---their lifetimes. If Paul meant anything else he should have told them so. There is no scriptural evidence he ever did. Man, I cannot present the dilemma any clearer than that.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 09-25-2009 at 12:43 PM..
I think you're failing to put yourselves in the shoes of the Thessolonians. Picture it: the Thessolonians are distraught--I mean really upset to the point of suicide or falling away from the faith because they think their loved ones have been lost forever when they die. Hence:
paraphrased, "Don't be sorry for your loved ones who have died, guys, like all the heathen who sorrow."
paraphrased, "Because if Jesus died and arose, then so will they."
At this point Paul has given absolutely no time-frame to the Thessolonians. So naturally, being human, they're going to think, "WOW, so I'm going to see my loved ones again. Probably real soon."
Paraphrased, "The Lord told me directly that you guys are not going to be raptured before they are."
Paraphrased, "The Lord's going to come down, raise your loved ones first and then you guys, me, and all the Christians alive right now will rise with them to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him forever."
Paraphrased, "Guys, don't worry. You're going to see your loved ones again very soon. So comfort yourselves with this promise."
I see nothing in there about Paul implying this could happen today or thousands of years from now. And if they did understand that Paul meant today or thousands of years from now, how would that be any comfort to newly-converted Christians who still had holds on their former pagan beliefs? Any level-headed Thessolonian would have automatically assumed Paul was speaking of the here and now---their lifetimes. If Paul meant anything else he should have told them so. There is no scriptural evidence he ever did. Man, I cannot present the dilemma any clearer than that.
I hate to say...I told you so....but I told you so
The blind will always be blind until they remove their blinders. Like Jesus said (paraphrase) if they won't accept it, shake the dust off your feet and move on.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
