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You obviously haven't looked deep enough into the allegations of "proof" for evolution.
Evolution, that is, change above the species level (the emergence of a new species from a different species) can be seen in real time in certain plant and animal species. Evolution is a fact. Simply google 'Evolution can be seen in real time.' Here is one link speaking to that.
A Psalm of David. Yahweh said to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”........
One of the main objectives God has, is to make an end to what He calls His "enemies". Now according to statistics, there are over 2 billion Christians on the planet. And we know among us, we view the faith in varying ways. However I would say most of us haven't incorporated this particular objective as a part of our daily life. That is subduing God's enemies. So for discussion, I'm going to lay out three particular enemies with this topic.
1. The satan/devil, the divine rebel.
2. Sin, imperfection, corruption, being off God's original design
3. Death
There may be more enemies than this, but I believe these are the three primary ones. So ultimately I believe when it comes to being a Christian/believer on this side, one of our objectives is to allow God to work through us to subdue these three enemies in the world. When I think about how God created the world in the beginning, and He spoke to humanity to multiply on the earth and subdue it, the world at that time wasn't fallen. God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden, and that was their starting point. In the Garden, heaven and earth overlapped. Adam and Eve were able to communicate with animals, they saw cherubs (spiritual beings), and we know there were trees with very unique properties. (Tree of Life, Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil) In the Garden, work didn't cause us to sweat, and out of the Garden there was a river that went forth to water the whole earth. All of this confirms this Garden was a special place, holy ground. In my estimation, Adam and Eve's original mission was to take this overlapping of heaven and earth, and spread it throughout the whole world. To make the whole earth be like the Garden of Eden. However it was here, where we had the introduction of the first enemy. The divine rebel!!!
Again, with regard to the order or sequence in which God created man and the animals the order absolutely contradicts. In Genesis one man is created AFTER the animals. In Genesis two God creates the man (the male) first, then the animals, and then the woman (female). The two stories contradict also in the number of days God took to create. In Genesis one God created everything in six days. In Genesis two God did it all in one day. Now you can claim that the 'day' in Genesis two covered a longer period of time than 24 hours but you are reading into the passage something that isn't there in an attempt to reconcile the two stories.
I doubt that you know much about what the ancient Hebrews believed. There were of course differences in beliefs among the ancient Hebrews but if you want to take what the Hebrew Bible says LITERALLY then God has a human shaped body and many ancient Hebrews believed that God had a wife or consort.
Furthermore, the two Genesis creation stories are not the only creation stories in the Bible. You point out that in the Genesis creation stories God doesn't battle any rivals. However, in the creation story in Psalm 74 God DOES battle with Leviathan which is a multi-headed sea monster (which actually symbolizes chaos). And this is a direct take from the Canaanite story that we call The Baal Cycle in which the god Baal battles a seven-headed dragon. The Hebrew Bible takes things that are attributed to the god Baal and instead attributes them to the Hebrew God Yahweh.
The Jewish Study Bible, Tanakh translation,2nd edition, produced by the Jewish Publication Society, in its introduction to Genesis, has the following to say about the Bible's connection to the ancient Near East stories.
Largely because of its focus on creation, the primeval story exhibits a number of contacts with Mesopotamian mythology. The account of creation with which Genesis opens (1.1-2.3), for example, has affinities with Enuma elish, a Babylonian epic, which tells how one god, Marduk, attained supremacy over the others and created the world by splitting his aquatic enemy Tiamat (cf. Heb tehom, ''the deep'') in half. The story of Adam and Eve's sin in the garden of Eden (2.25- 3.24) displays similarities with Gilgamesh, an epic poem that tells how its hero lost the opportunity for immortality and came to terms with his humanity. And the story of Noah (6.5-9.17) has close connections with Atrahasis, a Mesopotamian story in which the gods send a flood to wipe out the human race, with the exception of one man and his children from whom humankind begins afresh (the story was eventually incorporated into Gilgamesh as well). In each case, the biblical narrator has made use of the Mesopotamian forerunner but also adapted it to Israelite theology. The primeval story thus evidences both the deep continuities and the striking points of discontinuity between biblical Israel and its Mesopotamian antecedents and contemporaries.
You have this need to believe that the Genesis creation and flood accounts came down from God and under divine inspiration were written by Moses, but I prefer reality. And the evidence is that the various biblical writers took much of their material from the different ancient Near East stories and adapted them to Hebrew theology. And Moses did not write the first five books of the Bible. Genesis one for example was probably written around the time of the Babylonian captivity.
But I do understand your need to believe as you do.
Evolution, that is, change above the species level (the emergence of a new species from a different species) can be seen in real time in certain plant and animal species. Evolution is a fact. Simply google 'Evolution can be seen in real time.' Here is one link speaking to that.
Of course, if you are intent on resisting the evidence then you will continue to do so.
Give me a specific example where the evolution process has been shown and confirmed: DNA in a living species, on its own, learning and advancing and becoming more complex over time. It does not exist, because the 'vehicle' and mechanism / process for that does not exist.
All that site shows, like the rest, is natural selection. Natural selection is not evolution. That can't be used for evidence. Natural selection is external to DNA and the living creature. Evolution on the other hand is alleged to be internal, implying that the changes are entirely internal and that DNA is solely in charge. Not only that, but that DNA somehow has intelligence and learns. But it doesn't possess that, and can't, no matter how many years you throw at it.
Of course, if you are intent on resisting and ignoring the above, then you will continue to do so. Evolution is nothing more than a myth hastily wrapped in scientific clothes, that is religiously followed and believed.
Last edited by Thoreau424; 04-17-2024 at 12:29 PM..
Give me a specific example where the evolution process has been shown and confirmed: DNA in a living species, on its own, learning and advancing and becoming more complex over time. It does not exist, because the 'vehicle' and mechanism / process for that does not exist.
All that site shows, like the rest, is natural selection. Natural selection is not evolution. That can't be used for evidence. Natural selection is external to DNA and the living creature. Evolution on the other hand is alleged to be internal, implying that the changes are internal, through the DNA specifically. It's a huge difference that people keep missing, and want to miss.
Of course, if you are intent on resisting and ignoring the above, then you will continue to do so.
Thoreau, You misunderstand. Natural selection is what affects the survival dominance of any DNA mutations that occur. It is the internal DNA mutations that either survive and dominate or not based on the favorability of the mutation in the environment (i.e., natural selection).
Thoreau, You misunderstand. Natural selection is what affects the survival dominance of any DNA mutations that occur. It is the internal DNA mutations that either survive and dominate or not based on the favorability of the mutation in the environment (i.e., natural selection).
Yes, exactly. Natural selection and external effects are what run the show and allow / create changes over time. It's not the DNA in and of itself in the creatures, on its own, doing that (which is at the foundation of the evolution myth).
Here's an analogy: Say you have five different colored shirts widely available: green, blue, red, yellow, and white. Over time, people no longer become interested in the latter three. So after a number of years, only green and blue left. The others "died out". Clearly, just like with natural selection, external causes - beyond the shirts themselves - played a hand in what survived and what disappeared. Pure evolution - not able to leech onto natural selection - would have to argue that something internal to the shirts (the threads) played the role in what continued and what disappeared. That's how absurd it is.
I have no system to cheerlead for, including creationism, so that leaves me free to call out any of them. Evolution is the most obvious that is full of holes. I'd rather leave myself uncommitted to any system than support something clearly bogus.
Last edited by Thoreau424; 04-17-2024 at 01:20 PM..
Give me a specific example where the evolution process has been shown and confirmed: DNA in a living species, on its own, learning and advancing and becoming more complex over time. It does not exist, because the 'vehicle' and mechanism / process for that does not exist.
All that site shows, like the rest, is natural selection. Natural selection is not evolution. That can't be used for evidence. Natural selection is external to DNA and the living creature. Evolution on the other hand is alleged to be internal, implying that the changes are internal, through the DNA specifically. It's a huge difference that people keep missing, and want to miss.
Of course, if you are intent on resisting and ignoring the above, then you will continue to do so.
Natural selection is one of the basic mechanisms of evolution. A new species of Darwin's Finch which evolved in just two generations was confirmed by genomic sequencing.
Evolution is real. It exists and can be seen in real time. The attempts by theists to argue against what science has confirmed are an exercise in avoidance of the evidence.
174:4.6 (1901.6) When no more questions were forthcoming, and as the noon hour was near, Jesus did not resume his teaching but was content merely to ask the Pharisees and their associates a question. Said Jesus: “Since you ask no more questions, I would like to ask you one. What do you think of the Deliverer? That is, whose son is he?”After a brief pause one of the scribes answered, “The Messiah is the son of David.” And since Jesus knew that there had been much debate, even among his own disciples, as to whether or not he was the son of David, he asked this further question: “If the Deliverer is indeed the son of David, how is it that, in the Psalm which you accredit to David, he himself, speaking in the spirit, says, ‘The Lord said to my lord, sit on my right hand until I make your enemies the footstool of your feet.’ If David calls him Lord, how then can he be his son?” Although the rulers, the scribes, and the chief priests made no reply to this question, they likewise refrained from asking him any more questions in an effort to entangle him. They never answered this question which Jesus put to them, but after the Master’s death they attempted to escape the difficulty by changing the interpretation of this Psalm so as to make it refer to Abraham instead of the Messiah. Others sought to escape the dilemma by disallowing that David was the author of this so-called Messianic Psalm.
I believe similar reasonings are made about other Messianic verses as well, such as Isaiah 53 and the identity of the suffering servant. Now, I'm not a fan of the urantia book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
Again, with regard to the order or sequence in which God created man and the animals the order absolutely contradicts. In Genesis one man is created AFTER the animals. In Genesis two God creates the man (the male) first, then the animals, and then the woman (female). The two stories contradict also in the number of days God took to create. In Genesis one God created everything in six days. In Genesis two God did it all in one day. Now you can claim that the 'day' in Genesis two covered a longer period of time than 24 hours but you are reading into the passage something that isn't there in an attempt to reconcile the two stories.
I don't view Genesis 2 as saying God created in an absolute sequential sense. In Genesis 2, there is no mention of a day or days passing. Its just a carte blanche with God filling creation. There are no details given, only that God made the things mentioned. In Genesis one, it is very detailed. It is God speaking, then God taking and moving things around. And of course, days are mentioned. On Day 1, this and this happened. On day 2, this and this happened. And we can officially say what was created on day 1, came before what was created on day 2 or 3. We can't officially say that about much of anything in Genesis 2, except that Eve came out of Adam.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
I doubt that you know much about what the ancient Hebrews believed. There were of course differences in beliefs among the ancient Hebrews but if you want to take what the Hebrew Bible says LITERALLY then God has a human shaped body and many ancient Hebrews believed that God had a wife or consort.
Furthermore, the two Genesis creation stories are not the only creation stories in the Bible. You point out that in the Genesis creation stories God doesn't battle any rivals. However, in the creation story in Psalm 74 God DOES battle with Leviathan which is a multi-headed sea monster (which actually symbolizes chaos). And this is a direct take from the Canaanite story that we call The Baal Cycle in which the god Baal battles a seven-headed dragon. The Hebrew Bible takes things that are attributed to the god Baal and instead attributes them to the Hebrew God Yahweh.
The Jewish Study Bible, Tanakh translation,2nd edition, produced by the Jewish Publication Society, in its introduction to Genesis, has the following to say about the Bible's connection to the ancient Near East stories.
Largely because of its focus on creation, the primeval story exhibits a number of contacts with Mesopotamian mythology. The account of creation with which Genesis opens (1.1-2.3), for example, has affinities with Enuma elish, a Babylonian epic, which tells how one god, Marduk, attained supremacy over the others and created the world by splitting his aquatic enemy Tiamat (cf. Heb tehom, ''the deep'') in half. The story of Adam and Eve's sin in the garden of Eden (2.25- 3.24) displays similarities with Gilgamesh, an epic poem that tells how its hero lost the opportunity for immortality and came to terms with his humanity. And the story of Noah (6.5-9.17) has close connections with Atrahasis, a Mesopotamian story in which the gods send a flood to wipe out the human race, with the exception of one man and his children from whom humankind begins afresh (the story was eventually incorporated into Gilgamesh as well). In each case, the biblical narrator has made use of the Mesopotamian forerunner but also adapted it to Israelite theology. The primeval story thus evidences both the deep continuities and the striking points of discontinuity between biblical Israel and its Mesopotamian antecedents and contemporaries.
You have this need to believe that the Genesis creation and flood accounts came down from God and under divine inspiration were written by Moses, but I prefer reality. And the evidence is that the various biblical writers took much of their material from the different ancient Near East stories and adapted them to Hebrew theology. And Moses did not write the first five books of the Bible. Genesis one for example was probably written around the time of the Babylonian captivity.
But I do understand your need to believe as you do.
You may give too much heed to the scholars. I would say don't let the scholars interpret scripture for you, but we should seek interpretation from the Spirit of God. The scholars will tell you Israel borrowed from myths of the ancient near east, when in actuality those myths are the result of confusion about the one true God and His dealings with mankind. The Canaanites themselves also worshipped Yahweh, along with other gods. This is why many of them were judged and driven out, because they did the things Yahweh detests. However, Scholars will tell you the Israelites themselves were probably Canaanites in origin. They will tell you Abraham never existed, Moses never existed, all based on their lack of observation. At the end of that road, the Bible itself becomes nothing but stories.
No, the Bible didn't come down from Heaven. There is a human imprint concerning it. However, I do believe men were inspired to write. What we have are the copies, of the copies, of the copies of those original works. Yet as we see, these writings are pretty well preserved over time. I don't believe these copies are that much different from the originals, particularly as it pertains to the foundational stories. Maybe the stories concerning Abraham for instance aren't the most accurate that made it to us this day, but if Abraham didn't exist, you might as well throw the whole thing away. We would see the Bible like we see the Greek myths today. Would you agree?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCCyou
-snip-
No, the devil is not divine!
I hear ya! The word "divine" was more in the light that this rebel is a spiritual being. One where his rebellion began in Heaven.
I believe similar reasonings are made about other Messianic verses as well, such as Isaiah 53 and the identity of the suffering servant. Now, I'm not a fan of the urantia book.
I don't view Genesis 2 as saying God created in an absolute sequential sense. In Genesis 2, there is no mention of a day or days passing. Its just a carte blanche with God filling creation. There are no details given, only that God made the things mentioned. In Genesis one, it is very detailed. It is God speaking, then God taking and moving things around. And of course, days are mentioned. On Day 1, this and this happened. On day 2, this and this happened. And we can officially say what was created on day 1, came before what was created on day 2 or 3. We can't officially say that about much of anything in Genesis 2, except that Eve came out of Adam.
You purposely ignore the mentioned contractions. You can plainly see that the two stories have a different sequence in the order of creation concerning man and the animals and you purposely ignore it. You also ignored the fact that the creation story in Psalm 74 has strong parallels with the Canaanite story known as the Baal Cycle and that the Bible attributes to the Hebrew God what was first attributed to Baal.
Quote:
You may give too much heed to the scholars. I would say don't let the scholars interpret scripture for you, but we should seek interpretation from the Spirit of God. The scholars will tell you Israel borrowed from myths of the ancient near east, when in actuality those myths are the result of confusion about the one true God and His dealings with mankind. The Canaanites themselves also worshipped Yahweh, along with other gods. This is why many of them were judged and driven out, because they did the things Yahweh detests. However, Scholars will tell you the Israelites themselves were probably Canaanites in origin. They will tell you Abraham never existed, Moses never existed, all based on their lack of observation. At the end of that road, the Bible itself becomes nothing but stories.
No, the Bible didn't come down from Heaven. There is a human imprint concerning it. However, I do believe men were inspired to write. What we have are the copies, of the copies, of the copies of those original works. Yet as we see, these writings are pretty well preserved over time. I don't believe these copies are that much different from the originals, particularly as it pertains to the foundational stories. Maybe the stories concerning Abraham for instance aren't the most accurate that made it to us this day, but if Abraham didn't exist, you might as well throw the whole thing away. We would see the Bible like we see the Greek myths today. Would you agree.
No, I do not give too much heed to the scholars. Scholars spend their academic life studying things pertaining to the Bible. Archeology suggests that the Israelites WERE probably Canaanites. I go with the evidence. Perhaps you should try doing that.
Last edited by Michael Way; 04-17-2024 at 07:19 PM..
You purposely ignore the mentioned contractions. You can plainly see that the two stories have a different sequence in the order of creation concerning man and the animals and you purposely ignore it. You also ignored the fact that the creation story in Psalm 74 has strong parallels with the Canaanite story known as the Baal Cycle and that the Bible attributes to the Hebrew God what was first attributed to Baal.
I'm not ignoring what is written, but I would say you are not seeing how Genesis 2 is written out. By the way in terms of reconciliation, both the land animals and man were created on the same day according to Genesis 1. Genesis 2 has no mention of day or days. It doesn't even tell us how long Adam and Eve spent in the Garden before they fell. So they could have stayed in the Garden for years, or, they could have stayed in the Garden 3 seconds. Who knows. (But again, both the land creatures and man were created the same day in Genesis 6.)
I also do not ignore what is mentioned in the Psalms. Yet I wouldn't say one or two lines speaking about God crushing the heads of Leviathan are whole creation myths. As you said, Leviathan also represented the chaotic waters, not just an actual beast. Then we have the mention of not only Leviathan in the Book of Job, but also another beast in Behemoth. God declares He made both, and they are nothing but creatures God made right along with us. They are not His rivals, like they are to the Ancient Near East gods. Psalm 104:25-26 reads.........
Here is the sea, great and wide, which teems with creatures innumerable, living things both small and great. There go the ships, and Leviathan, which You formed to play in it.
So you see, Leviathan is not a rival to God or someone He struggled to bring under submission to create the heavens and the earth. Here it shows Leviathan as God's pet. Even in the interpretation of borrowing from Ancient Near East myths, the Ancient Hebrew Israelites show the superiority of Yahweh. They also state all the champions and heroes of the Ancient Near East, were really the hybrid children of fallen spiritual beings. That it was because of them, the world was full of evil. It's interpretations like this you will not get from scholars. And there is still so much more to learn.
Finally I would say you might be ignoring something as well. Genesis 1 is written into the Ten Commandments. You ignore the Israelites 2,000 plus years ago, most likely accepted those things to be foundational. That means they most likely believed some of the things you deny. That Jesus Himself believed some of the things you deny. Would you tell me you have no problem with that outlook?
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