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Now.. I think politics can even play a part. I'm not saying that Curt Schilling was kept out for that reason.. But it may be a small part of the overall reason. Everyone around him with similar stats is in.. Other than Clemens who is well ahead of Schilling on stats, but, has his own issues. Losing $75 million of taxpayer money would be another reason..
Honestly.. If he hadn't asked for his name to be removed in '22.. He very well could have made it in. I think he had 71% in his 9th year and went down to near 50% in his final.
All true enough. One of the major tipping points for Schilling, though, was his public endorsement of the idea of lynching journalists. Given that the HoF voters are in fact sportswriters, that apparently did not go over well at all. It's amazingly stupid on his part to support the concept of killing the very people voting for you.
Interestingly enough, being an extreme political conservative didn't hamper the first ballot election of players like Mariano Rivera and John Smoltz. Repeated problems with foot-in-mouth disease definitely made the difference with Schilling.
All true enough. One of the major tipping points for Schilling, though, was his public endorsement of the idea of lynching journalists. Given that the HoF voters are in fact sportswriters, that apparently did not go over well at all. It's amazingly stupid on his part to support the concept of killing the very people voting for you.
Interestingly enough, being an extreme political conservative didn't hamper the first ballot election of players like Mariano Rivera and John Smoltz. Repeated problems with foot-in-mouth disease definitely made the difference with Schilling.
lol.. I don't recall that one that Schilling did. That being said.. I'm not shocked by it, either.
Smoltz I kinda got the feel for his politics even though I don't believe I've ever heard him come out and say anything.. Had no idea about Rivera.. So.. That one is surprising to me. Plus.. Keeping out Rivera would be close to saying "Let's keep out Babe Ruth".. When you hit a certain level of play.. Well.. Maybe not. I mean, look at Bonds. He's out.
Bonds is a tough one.. While I agree that steroids don't make you see the ball better or anything.. That's a crap excuse. They DO allow you to recover faster, work out more and add more muscle. So, you're getting an advantage, like it or not.. If you weren't, why would you take them?
I don't think he should be kept out of the hall for all time. Should he get in while he's alive? Eh.. I'll leave that one alone.. Someone like Pete.. Yeah, he needs to be in, along with Shoeless Joe.. Joe's dead.. Pete's not. So, right now.. Only Joe.
Keeping him out for all time is punishing the fans. Keeping them out during their lifetime.. That's their punishment.
lol.. I don't recall that one that Schilling did. That being said.. I'm not shocked by it, either.
Schilling retweeted a picture of someone wearing a shirt saying "Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required." He then added the comment "Ok, so much awesome here..."
Schilling retweeted a picture of someone wearing a shirt saying "Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required." He then added the comment "Ok, so much awesome here..."
If you had one at bat, who would you rather take it - Baines or Maris?
I agree that Baines is a horrible inductee. But having him in lowers the bar. So why not put Maris in if he is close or borderline?
And of course there are a lot of excellent players who had excellent stats who have been left out - Schilling, Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, Juan Gonzalez, Jose Canseco - to name a few.
If you had one at bat, who would you rather take it - Baines or Maris?
Can I choose Mickey Mantle or Babe Ruth instead?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggermatt15
I agree that Baines is a horrible inductee. But having him in lowers the bar. So why not put Maris in if he is close or borderline?
Nah -- the best way to look at it is to see Baines as a horrible outlier and try not to repeat the mistake. Baines ranks 61st in BBRef WAR at RF, while Maris ranks 65th. Once you get below Chuck Klein who is 34th at the position, the number of HoF-ers falls off dramatically. The only RFs between Klein and Baines enshrined are Sam Thompson (40th) and Tony Oliva (42nd). You'd have to induct 24 more RFs to close the gap, and that's a ton (for perspective, there are 27 RFs total in the HoF, so you'd be almost doubling the number to not make Baines look like a colossal mistake).
Meanwhile, players like Dwight Evans (14th) and Reggie Smith (15th) can't get a sniff. That's where the big injustice lies at the position. I'm not too worked up about Maris not being in, given this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggermatt15
And of course there are a lot of excellent players who had excellent stats who have been left out - Schilling, Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, Juan Gonzalez, Jose Canseco - to name a few.
Schilling (28th in pitcher WAR), Clemens (3rd in pitcher WAR), and Bonds (1st in LF WAR) are all deserving by the numbers. Gonzalez (62 in RF WAR) and Canseco (43rd in RF WAR) not so much. All have PED or other Character Clause baggage, though.
If you had one at bat, who would you rather take it - Baines or Maris?
I agree that Baines is a horrible inductee. But having him in lowers the bar. So why not put Maris in if he is close or borderline?
And of course there are a lot of excellent players who had excellent stats who have been left out - Schilling, Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, Juan Gonzalez, Jose Canseco - to name a few.
Ew.. I'd argue Canseco with you. Admittedly.. Early in his career, he had a few MONSTER years, but.. Overall? No. He's in the Kirk Gibson/David Justice/Roger Maris territory.
Gonzalez is even worse..
The others.. Well.. We know the reasons they're not in.. And.. Canseco has some of the same problems and then some of his own.
I'll mention something else that I think certainly affects HoF chances.. which probably shouldn't. Spending your entire career with one team. Might not be a big boost, but.. I think it does give a slight boost to chances. Which. Still doesn't answer Baines.
I was looking at the highest WAR pitchers.. The highest WAR to not get into the HoF who's not currently active or named Clemens or Schilling is Jim McCormick. A career 76.2 WAR. He's right in there with Verlander, Schilling, Glavine, Greinke, Scherzer. All either in, or will most likely be in once their career is over or.. Once they hit the committees.
But, it's not an argument about whether he should be in.. I looked at some of his stats.. Boy went 45-28 in 1880. Started 74 games and pitched 72 CGs that season. 657 IP.. lol.. and a 1.85 ERA.
it's fun sometimes to look at those old stats. They had THREE pitchers on the roster.. and he was the manager!
Baines got rammed through Frankie Frisch partisan style thanks to Tony La Russa and Jerry Reinsdorf, who were on the Eras Committee that year -- they were the manager and owner of the White Sox when Baines played there. Pat Gillick, who was the GM when Baines was in Baltimore, was also on the committee that year, and presumably not averse to inducing Baines.
This article shows how horrendous a choice Baines was, listing him as the seventh worst player in the HoF relative to positional JAWS standard (JAWS is a sabermetric number derived via averaging the player's career WAR with their 7-year peak WAR). The only worse choices are Tommy McCarthy, Lloyd Waner, Jesse Haines, Highpockets Kelly, Freddie Lindstrom, and Rube Marquard, massive mistakes all. Link:
I was looking at the highest WAR pitchers.. The highest WAR to not get into the HoF who's not currently active or named Clemens or Schilling is Jim McCormick. A career 76.2 WAR. He's right in there with Verlander, Schilling, Glavine, Greinke, Scherzer. All either in, or will most likely be in once their career is over or.. Once they hit the committees.
But, it's not an argument about whether he should be in.. I looked at some of his stats.. Boy went 45-28 in 1880. Started 74 games and pitched 72 CGs that season. 657 IP.. lol.. and a 1.85 ERA.
it's fun sometimes to look at those old stats. They had THREE pitchers on the roster.. and he was the manager!
Personally, I'd be fine with McCormick getting in. As you mentioned, he has the best BBRef WAR of any pitcher not in the HoF (ranking 30th), which is a solid argument in his favor (he did earn some of it during a stint in the not-so-competitive Union Association in 1884, but even if you remove all the WAR he accumulated that year, he still tops the list), and except for that brief stint in the UA, he pitched in the NL, which was the most competitive league at the time. Moreover, there are 51 eligible pitchers in the HoF with worse WAR numbers than him, so it's not like he's marginal. His career ERA+ of 118 is perfectly fine, and even his non-sabermetric numbers like a career W-L of 265-214 wouldn't look out of place among his peers.
He'd certainly be a better choice than Baines, for sure.
The Character Clause has become a contentious issue for the BBHoF, in part because it's sometimes applied arbitrarily. There's an added problem here as well -- it wasn't codified until the Hall formalized its election rules, which occurred in 1945. So for nine years, there wasn't one, and that's when some of the more questionable "characters" got in, including:
-Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker, both implicated heavily in game fixing during 1919, but let off by Commissioner Landis for some reason. Link:
Babe Ruth was no saint either, though it's unlikely he did anything as problematic as the players above.
It's very questionable whether any of these players except Ruth would be elected today.
I specifically had Ty Cobb in mind when I typed my post.
Much of my great uncle's 40 year marriage (which ended with my great aunt's death from natural causes) was unhappy. For a period, it got so bad that he essentially moved to a resort in Arizona. During that period my great uncle said that Ty Cobb spent almost as much time at that resort as he did. My great uncle and I shared a love for baseball. As a fan, he enjoyed his many conversations with Cobb, but he said Cobb was a pretty crappy human being.
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