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It is in fact not strictly legal to promote a particular religion or religious view on public property. In some areas the posting of such signs is tolerated or ignored, which constitutes government endorsement of the messages.
According to my understanding, at that point, one of two things must happen: either all religious messages must be prohibited, or all must be given equal time. That is the basis for the Satanic Temple demanding that a statue of Baphomet be allowed next to a permitted statue of, say, Moses. In all such instances I know of, the local authorities remove Moses rather than suffer the Baphomet statue.
So this is another tactic that could be explored, to put up signs extolling areligion or atheism or even just countering hellthreat messages with god's love.
And yet if the subject matter isn't important, why couldn't, say, Pepsi or KFC put up advertisements? Or the local strip joint? Or the KKK? At some point the agency in control of that property would tell everyone to knock it off. You could argue you're doing the agency a favor by taking stuff back down. It spares them addressing it.
False equivalence. An individual activist is not an authoritarian ruler. Someone removing a sign has as much authority to do so as someone posting it, which is to say, none at all; and someone who sees the sign is perfectly free to read it or not. And posting the sign is a controlling / presumptive act that puts the message in front of people who didn't ask for it. That said, as I suggested above, dueling signage is also an option.
Not quite true - it is freedom of religion not freedom from religion - there is a difference. Allowing something does not carry an endorsement. There are chapels on every military base and they hold services - that is certainly legal but it is not endorsing any religion.
The point is that taking stuff down is far more favoring of no religion (atheist) than favoring any one religion - how is that fair to favor only that "non-religion".
Back in the '80s, the board of supervisors in my SFBay county had always opened meetings with a prayer by a particular religious leader (something major, like a protestant, I don't recall what, exactly). They announced they wanted to open it up to all faiths, and were horrified when the first volunteer was a Wiccan.
They had been thinking maybe a Catholic priest, or perhaps, at a stretch, a Rabbi would make them appear open minded.
You'd think that anywhere in the Bay Area would've been prepared for non-mainstream faiths to be represented, heh. Incidentally, the longtime supervisor of the town of Greece (a Republican) cited a Wiccan prayer-offerer in one of the articles I posted as evidence of their open-mindedness/inclusiveness
Not quite true - it is freedom of religion not freedom from religion - there is a difference. Allowing something does not carry an endorsement. There are chapels on every military base and they hold services - that is certainly legal but it is not endorsing any religion.
The point is that taking stuff down is far more favoring of no religion (atheist) than favoring any one religion - how is that fair to favor only that "non-religion".
Freedom of religion includes freedom from religion
Not quite true - it is freedom of religion not freedom from religion - there is a difference. Allowing something does not carry an endorsement. There are chapels on every military base and they hold services - that is certainly legal but it is not endorsing any religion.
The point is that taking stuff down is far more favoring of no religion (atheist) than favoring any one religion - how is that fair to favor only that "non-religion".
And taking things down that favor any given religion is merely correcting the wrong of favoring that religion in the first place; it's not favoring atheism
::Sigh:: Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech in the public square means the GOVERNMENT is prevented from censoring, prohibiting, or imposing on those freedoms, period. It has nothing to do with freedom FROM the exercise of those freedoms! The legalistic lawyers and would-be lawyers and dictators among us have attacked those freedoms with abandon in pursuit of their so-called ideals, IMO.
Not quite true - it is freedom of religion not freedom from religion - there is a difference. Allowing something does not carry an endorsement. There are chapels on every military base and they hold services - that is certainly legal but it is not endorsing any religion.
The point is that taking stuff down is far more favoring of no religion (atheist) than favoring any one religion - how is that fair to favor only that "non-religion".
Freedom of religion absolutely includes freedom from religion, there is no separation between them.
You are misunderstanding & misrepresenting what ASP is doing. Removing religious propaganda is not "favoring atheism" or promoting it at all (wtf?) there is no atheist dogma to promote or advertise.
If we're gonna talk about fairness, how is it fair on any level for Christians to post this propaganda everywhere on public property & shove this in your face literally everywhere you go when they already have billboards, hundreds & thousands of churches just in the United States alone, Christian TV networks, a whole Christian film industry, an entire Christian music industry, a Christian literature industry, video games, kid's cartoons, political involvement & many other ways of shoving this stuff in your face through media, pop culture & everyday life. We're talking about an extremely overprivileged religion that's been extremely overprivileged for literally centuries upon centuries.
Also I disagree with & about chaplains on military bases. If they only have Christian chapels but no available religious services of any other kind, that is clearly acting in favor of a specific religion.
Comparing TV shows & video games to religious influence is a very bad comparison & a false equivalent, violent video games & violent TV shows do not teach people to marginalize other groups of people who they disagree with as Christianity does & I'm definitely not gonna waste time, effort & resources on a useless goofy organization dedicated to opposing them when there are better things for me to be against- like religious propaganda.
Seriously? "If you are against violence why is your organization called pirates?" That's a stupid & irrelevant question. Why do so many churches & Christian academies have the name "Crusade" or "Crusaders" in their name despite many churches advertising themselves as being "family friendly" & ready to distance themselves from the actual Crusades that took place in Europe & the Middle East during the Medieval Era? In case you haven't noticed, Christianity has never been known for peace, love or caring about the mental health of children any more than pirates throughout history, except at least pirates didn't indoctrinate them into believing in an imaginary friend that they can use to justify & rationalize wrongdoings against other people (or maybe some of them did, maybe there were "Christian pirates" too)
If you're really against promotion of religion on public property, then you should have absolutely no objections to us removing the illegally placed propaganda used to promote it. Also this does not take that much time or energy & Atheists United already puts more effort into other causes, such as volunteer work, public trash cleanup (separate from ASP) & involvement in food distributions
Really? TV and shows don’t marginalize the groups of people?
Sure, only the Arabs, the Chinese, the Iranians, the Russians, etc.
My question wasn’t stupid - to name something “pirates” is stupid. What are you - thirteen?
Look up the definition of the word.
BTW, your user name is “righteous”? Isn’t it from religions?
And why you are only mentioning one of the religions you are allegedly fighting using the pretense? of atheism?.
Do you have plans to fight the Muslim call to prayer? It is religious and it is in public.
What about religious holidays days off for government workers and in public schools?
Just pointing out some of hypocrisy
There is something positive in what you do, however - removing trash from public places is always commendable- thanks
Really? TV and shows don’t marginalize the groups of people?
Sure, only the Arabs, the Chinese, the Iranians, the Russians, etc.
You don't know what you're talking about. I'm referring to real-life social, political & economical marginalization & discrimination influenced by religions such as Christianity, not fictional depictions on TV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L00k4ward
My question wasn’t stupid - to name something “pirates” is stupid. What are you - thirteen?
Look up the definition of the word.
"What are you? Thirteen?" lmao You're just mad that your question was indeed very stupid & it's also irrelevant since we're not inciting or commiting violence & we're not a hate group in any way as our actions clearly show.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L00k4ward
BTW, your user name is “righteous”? Isn’t it from religions?
That's obviously meant to be ironic since I'm an atheist & therefore not religious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L00k4ward
And why you are only mentioning one of the religions you are allegedly fighting using the pretense? of atheism?.
Do you have plans to fight the Muslim call to prayer? It is religious and it is in public.
What about religious holidays days off for government workers and in public schools?
Just pointing out some of hypocrisy
You're not pointing out hypocrisy, you're expressing misunderstandings. We don't ever find this type of propaganda from any other religion, only Christianity. Christianity is generally the only religion that illegally posts this propaganda because of the sense of privilige associated with it particularly in the United States, while Muslims & people of other religions generally know that if they post the kind of bandit signs Christians post then they will get taken down very quickly, especially if you live in a very conservative area such as the Bible Belt as I do & things like religious holidays, Muslim call to prayer & legal public school issues are entirely separate matters from ASP. Organizations such as Freedom From Religion Foundation handle matters like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L00k4ward
There is something positive in what you do, however - removing trash from public places is always commendable- thanks
I don't know why you're thanking me for doing this is if you find so much wrong with it. Talk about inconsistency.
Last edited by RighteousRichey; 02-07-2024 at 09:16 AM..
::Sigh:: Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech in the public square means the GOVERNMENT is prevented from censoring, prohibiting, or imposing on those freedoms, period. It has nothing to do with freedom FROM the exercise of those freedoms! The legalistic lawyers and would-be lawyers and dictators among us have attacked those freedoms with abandon in pursuit of their so-called ideals, IMO.
It's almost cliche that freedom of religion includes freedom from religion. The government cannot infringe on a citizen's right to be an atheist. I don't know what more to say beyond that. Google it. A bunch of the more prominent founding fathers were themselves deists and likely would've been atheists had they lived in today's intellectual climate. Much as the God and country types hate to admit it....
Time to form a city-data book club? Author used to be 'on retainer indefinitely' (hah) for the Freedom From Religion Foundation
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