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Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.
And you shall have half of what your wives leave if they have no child, but if they have a child, then you shall have a fourth of what they leave after (payment of) any bequest they may have bequeathed or a debt; and they shall have the fourth of what you leave if you have no child, but if you have a child then they shall have the eighth of what you leave after (payment of) a bequest you may have bequeathed or a debt; and if a man or a woman leaves property to be inherited by neither parents nor offspring, and he (or she) has a brother or a sister, then each of them two shall have the sixth, but if they are more than that, they shall be sharers in the third after (payment of) any bequest that may have been bequeathed or a debt that does not harm (others); this is an ordinance from Allah: and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing. The Holy Quran 4:11.12
They ask you for a decision of the law. Say: Allah gives you a decision concerning the person who has neither parents nor offspring; if a man dies (and) he has no son and he has a sister, she shall have half of what he leaves, and he shall be her heir she has no son; but if there be two (sisters), they shall have two-thirds of what he leaves; and if there are brethren, men and women, then the male shall have the like of the portion of two females; Allah makes clear to you, lest you err; and Allah knows all things. The Holy Quran 4:176
Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.
And you shall have half of what your wives leave if they have no child, but if they have a child, then you shall have a fourth of what they leave after (payment of) any bequest they may have bequeathed or a debt; and they shall have the fourth of what you leave if you have no child, but if you have a child then they shall have the eighth of what you leave after (payment of) a bequest you may have bequeathed or a debt; and if a man or a woman leaves property to be inherited by neither parents nor offspring, and he (or she) has a brother or a sister, then each of them two shall have the sixth, but if they are more than that, they shall be sharers in the third after (payment of) any bequest that may have been bequeathed or a debt that does not harm (others); this is an ordinance from Allah: and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing. The Holy Quran 4:11.12
They ask you for a decision of the law. Say: Allah gives you a decision concerning the person who has neither parents nor offspring; if a man dies (and) he has no son and he has a sister, she shall have half of what he leaves, and he shall be her heir she has no son; but if there be two (sisters), they shall have two-thirds of what he leaves; and if there are brethren, men and women, then the male shall have the like of the portion of two females; Allah makes clear to you, lest you err; and Allah knows all things. The Holy Quran 4:176
These are some of laws from the owner of this universe and the owner of this planet and the owner of us ,
laws and orders that we must compliance to avoid his punishment after we die and to gain his paradise .
Really? I thought that Woodrow said the quran wasn't like that. Laws and orders are, after all, commandments. Who is right, you or woodrow?
Also, can you prove in any way your assertion that "These are some of laws from the owner of this universe and the owner of this planet and the owner of us , laws and orders that we must compliance to avoid his punishment after we die and to gain his paradise "
Or is this another arbitrary assertion and therefore meaningless?
These are VERY ineffective Laws of Intestacy because they are immutable [fixed, rigid] and eternal thus cannot change with changing circumstances in time.
Such Laws of Intestacy should not have been included in a Holy Texts at all and definitely not in an immutable [fixed, rigid] holy text.
Such rigidity lend weight that the Quran was authored by human[s] rather than an all-knowing God.
These are VERY ineffective Laws of Intestacy because they are immutable [fixed, rigid] and eternal thus cannot change with changing circumstances in time.
Changing circumstances can be taken into account by the person himself/herself in his/her Will. His/her Will be taken into account first.
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Such Laws of Intestacy should not have been included in a Holy Texts at all and definitely not in an immutable [fixed, rigid] holy text.
Why not? Would you rather prefer fighting it out in courts?
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Such rigidity lend weight that the Quran was authored by human[s] rather than an all-knowing God.
These clear laws lend weight that the Qur'an was authored by all knowing God rather than by human(s). Human like you couldn't have even come up with such an idea.
Let's see if you even understand these laws:
A Muslim man dies without a Will. He leaves $20,000,000, a wife, 5 sons and 2 daughters, and no debt. All his children are married. Who gets what according to the law in the Qur'an?
Changing circumstances can be taken into account by the person himself/herself in his/her Will. His/her Will be taken into account first.
This is obvious.
Note my specific point was re Laws of Intestacy [without a will].
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Why not? Would you rather prefer fighting it out in courts?
The Laws of Intestacy as I mentioned should NEVER be dealt within a holy text from a God and more so if that holy texts is asserted as immutable [cannot be changed].
All Laws of Intestacy should be establish via a non-theistic basis where changes by morality, wisdom, rationality is possible in accordance to changing circumstances.
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These clear laws lend weight that the Qur'an was authored by all knowing God rather than by human(s). Human like you couldn't have even come up with such an idea.
How can be it authored by an all knowing compassionate and wise God when there is obvious sex discrimination in this case. Obviously those Laws were authored by sexist males.
I can understand there was a need for Laws of Intestacy during the time and circumstances Muhammad was alive. But this necessity should not have been embedded in the Quran as an eternal Law that will last forever regardless of the changes within reality.
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Let's see if you even understand these laws:
A Muslim man dies without a Will. He leaves $20,000,000, a wife, 5 sons and 2 daughters, and no debt. All his children are married. Who gets what according to the law in the Qur'an?
My point is to show that there was universal unfairness and discriminations.
This can be proven by an example, a man left $20,000 a son and two daughters.
According to 4:11-12, the son will get $10,000 and the daughters $5,000 each.
In principle there is unfairness and discriminations and this principle is supposed to be in effect eternally and forever regardless of the change within reality in time and the future.
If such proportion was deemed reasonable during the 7th Century and thereabout a wise and all-knowing Allah should have qualified such a law should only be effect for a certain period of time, e.g. within 100 or the next 500 years rather than leaving it as an eternal immutable Law.
To be fair, the Intestacy Law should be equal amongst all surviving direct spouse and children like what is in effect with most developed countries at present. Then it is up to the siblings or the spouse to help the others on their own initiatives.
All Intestacy Laws [absence of will] which are secular are open to changes based on consensus of the people and conditioned upon morality, rationality and wisdom of the time.
Last edited by Continuum; 06-20-2016 at 11:34 PM..
The Laws of Intestacy as I mentioned should NEVER be dealt within a holy text from a God and more so if that holy texts is asserted as immutable [cannot be changed].
Just because you do not believe in a holy text?
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Originally Posted by Continuum
All Laws of Intestacy should be establish via a non-theistic basis where changes by morality, wisdom, rationality is possible in accordance to changing circumstances.
There is always room for your points, circumstances, morality, wisdom and rationality to be taken by the person himself/herself as s/he feels fit. S/he will not make a Will if s/he is happy with the Islamic laws. In fact, all these points are already taken into account even if there is no Will.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
How can be it authored by an all knowing compassionate and wise God when there is obvious sex discrimination in this case. Obviously those Laws were authored by sexist males.
That is really the point you were itching to make here, and not that the laws are unfair.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
I can understand there was a need for Laws of Intestacy during the time and circumstances Muhammad was alive. But this necessity should not have been embedded in the Quran as an eternal Law that will last forever regardless of the changes within reality.
These laws apply to Muslims only and are appropriate for them only due to their family life, circumstances and responsibilities due to them living the Islamic life. These laws cannot be imposed on non-Muslims like you.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
My point is to show that there was universal unfairness and discriminations.
Universal?
I see no discrimination or unfairness when I take into account Muslims' family life and how they are responsible for their family members such as unmarried sisters and wives (who do not have to work).
Equality may not be fair in all circumstances. Take the example of two travelers through a jungle, Continuum and Khalif, about to sit down to eat. Continuum had 5 loafs of bread and the Khalif had 3 loafs of bread. A third travelers who had no bread comes and joins the two. All three eat all the bread equally.
Before leaving, the third traveler gives Continuum and Khalif $8 because he did not have any bread. Now, Continuum and Khalif begin to argue about the share of the money. Khalif wants to share $8 equally but Continuum disagrees and wants to keep $5 and give Khalif $3. Which one is right; Continuum or Khalif?
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Originally Posted by Khalif
Let's see if you even understand these laws:
A Muslim man dies without a Will. He leaves $20,000,000, a wife, 5 sons and 2 daughters, and no debt. All his children are married. Who gets what according to the law in the Qur'an?
You did not even attempt to answer my question. You simply danced around it. I knew you hadn't understood the Islamic laws of inheritance.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
This can be proven by an example, a man left $20,000 a son and two daughters.
According to 4:11-12, the son will get $10,000 and the daughters $5,000 each.
That is far too simple way of looking at these laws. You are not taking into account your own criteria of circumstances, wisdom and rationality, in haste to bring up the point of sex discrimination.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
In principle there is unfairness and discriminations and this principle is supposed to be in effect eternally and forever regardless of the change within reality in time and the future.
These laws are for Muslims and, in them, Muslim family circumstances and responsibilities of male regarding female has been taken into account in such laws.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
If such proportion was deemed reasonable during the 7th Century and thereabout a wise and all-knowing Allah should have qualified such a law should only be effect for a certain period of time, e.g. within 100 or the next 500 years rather than leaving it as an eternal immutable Law.
The proportion is reasonable for Muslims. Allah was imposing these laws on Muslims only.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
To be fair, the Intestacy Law should be equal amongst all surviving direct spouse and children like what is in effect with most developed countries at present. Then it is up to the siblings or the spouse to help the others on their own initiatives.
What if they don't? In equal for all, their circumstances and responsibilities are not taken into account nor rationality, wisdom and morality. Equal share would be most unfair on the son as he will be responsible to fund the marriage expenses of his sisters (if they are unmarried) and his sisters will be supported by their husbands if married. The son will not have the financial support from another party whether married or unmarried.
Yes, all the circumstances of a Muslim family life have been taken into account in thees laws.
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Originally Posted by Continuum
All Intestacy Laws [absence of will] which are secular are open to changes based on consensus of the people and conditioned upon morality, rationality and wisdom of the time.
Open to changes is recipe for disagreements and unfairness. The fact that such laws are liable to be changed, is proof enough that these were wrong in the first place.
Here is my question again:
A Muslim man dies without a Will. He leaves $20,000,000, a wife, 5 sons and 2 daughters, and no debt. All his children are married. Who gets what according to the law in the Qur'an?
Can you work out how much will each get under the Islamic law and why you think it will be unfair?
I do not have much issue with any holy text that is not claimed to be immutable, i.e. perfected and cannot be changed for eternity, when in reality, change is a constant.
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There is always room for your points, circumstances, morality, wisdom and rationality to be taken by the person himself/herself as s/he feels fit. S/he will not make a Will if s/he is happy with the Islamic laws. In fact, all these points are already taken into account even if there is no Will.
The first point that such a Law is immutable is indication that it is not a good universal Law which has no room to adapt to inevitable changes in time.
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That is really the point you were itching to make here, and not that the laws are unfair.
That is the most critical point for any human.
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These laws apply to Muslims only and are appropriate for them only due to their family life, circumstances and responsibilities due to them living the Islamic life. These laws cannot be imposed on non-Muslims like you.
Universal?
I see no discrimination or unfairness when I take into account Muslims' family life and how they are responsible for their family members such as unmarried sisters and wives (who do not have to work).
The above may be fair and optimal for a certain circumstances but the fact that it is made immutable, there is where the weakness it.
In some situation in the older days and perhaps at present, it is the law of the community to give everything [land, house, etc.] to the eldest son so that he can establish and maintain the ancestor land intact and take care of the other siblings where possible. It would not be practical to keep dividing the land equally between all the children.
There are many different inheritance laws that are specific to certain circumstance but they are all open to change and not made immutable.
The problem is while the Law of inheritance in the Quran may have been practical for a certain location and time, it is enforced as immutable for eternity.
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Equality may not be fair in all circumstances. Take the example of two travelers through a jungle, Continuum and Khalif, about to sit down to eat. Continuum had 5 loafs of bread and the Khalif had 3 loafs of bread. A third travelers who had no bread comes and joins the two. All three eat all the bread equally.
Before leaving, the third traveler gives Continuum and Khalif $8 because he did not have any bread. Now, Continuum and Khalif begin to argue about the share of the money. Khalif wants to share $8 equally but Continuum disagrees and wants to keep $5 and give Khalif $3. Which one is right; Continuum or Khalif?
What is critical in such a circumstance is all survive through the jungle, if survival was a critical factor.
Personally, I would not expect any money in this case and decline the offer by the traveler.
However if $1 is of significant value, then the rationale should first based on opportunity costs or potential value. If Continuum and Khalif were to sell their bread, Continuum will get $5 and Khalif $3 or in that proportion. In this case, although not equal in amount, it is very rational and fair for Continuum will get $5 and Khalif $3.
The other explanation in that case is;
Why Continuum had 5 loaves is because he has 20 family members to share, i.e. quarter loaf for each family member. Khalif had 3 loaves because has 12 family members. Therefore it would be rational and fair for Continuum to get $5 so that he can buy back 5 Loaves to feed the 19 family members without anyone going hungry. Similar Khalif will get his $3 to buy 3 Loaves to feed his 11 people. It is this not fair?
If the $8 is accepted, I personally would give Khalif $4 if he insisted that value of $ is the basis of rationality and fairness. Frankly I would give the whole $8 to Khalif since he appear to so calculative.
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You did not even attempt to answer my question. You simply danced around it. I knew you hadn't understood the Islamic laws of inheritance.
It is not critical for me to deal with the details except on the critical principle of fairness, discrimination and justice elements on a universal basis.
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That is far too simple way of looking at these laws. You are not taking into account your own criteria of circumstances, wisdom and rationality, in haste to bring up the point of sex discrimination.
The primary element here is immutability and the universal basis of discrimination and thus fairness to all in principle. I agree that Law in the Quran may be fair in a specific circumstances where males played a more significant role then but to make it immutable for eternity is wrong.
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These laws are for Muslims and, in them, Muslim family circumstances and responsibilities of male regarding female has been taken into account in such laws.
The proportion is reasonable for Muslims. Allah was imposing these laws on Muslims only.
Muslims are human beings not zombies or aliens on Earth, thus should be entitled to fair universal Laws.
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What if they don't? In equal for all, their circumstances and responsibilities are not taken into account nor rationality, wisdom and morality. Equal share would be most unfair on the son as he will be responsible to fund the marriage expenses of his sisters (if they are unmarried) and his sisters will be supported by their husbands if married. The son will not have the financial support from another party whether married or unmarried.
You are too focus on the past and present.
Point is when the Law is based on equality for all, there is a lot of room to improve the moral, empathy and compassion competence of the majority of people in the future. In this case there will be the rewiring of the dynamic neurons in the brain to deal with it.
When the moral, empathy, compassion competence is improved in the future those who received equal share [no will] will spontaneously know what to do to help the other parties involved.
Meanwhile, in this case the moral, empathy and compassion competence of all Muslims need to change and increase towards the outside of the immutable [obsolete] Muslim box.
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Yes, all the circumstances of a Muslim family life have been taken into account in these laws.
Open to changes is recipe for disagreements and unfairness.
The fact that such laws are liable to be changed, is proof enough that these were wrong in the first place.
I can understand your need to defend your religions regardless of the truth.
But the above is real nonsense. You are going crazy with such statements.
Change is the only constant and reality will always change.
The default is humanity has always been adapting to change to improve the well being of the individual and group.
Fixed and rigid Laws are only good for specific circumstances and time and bad [I have to say stupid] if they are imposed as immutable.
All Laws must be dynamic and open to changes but within the control of rationality and wisdom.
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Here is my question again:
A Muslim man dies without a Will. He leaves $20,000,000, a wife, 5 sons and 2 daughters, and no debt. All his children are married. Who gets what according to the law in the Qur'an?
Can you work out how much will each get under the Islamic law and why you think it will be unfair?
I am not interested in specific situations and rigid immutable laws.
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